Why is life expectancy way lower in the US than the other civilized countries

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 09:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That seems aggressively pedantic. I think the top 10 have less combined population than Alaska or North Dakota, there's generally an accepted sample size requirement for rankings. Kuwait would certainly meet that requirement, though, pushing the US to 2nd.

That doesn't sound like Dill at all.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 08:40 PM)Dill Wrote: Data is better than anecdotes.

What about CA--better than the rest of the country, or worse.

If your issue is with the sources kindly take it up with them.

[HarleyDog]

(09-01-2023, 08:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Well according to the data you gave me, the U.S. is 12th.

I was just going by the eye test. I lived in England and Germany and didn't notice a whit of difference between them and Americans.
Maybe our youth are fatter? 

Guess that's why we rely on data, though.

Jordan is right below the U.S. That's also a head scratcher. Would have never guessed.

I lived in Germany as well and the Germans love their beer and sausage. They take pride in their food because it's darn good. I went to Spain for a week, and they have (or had, not sure if they still do) a Wimpy's hamburger chain. Much like McDonalds. It was never packed and it was easy to get a burger without waiting in line. But Spain food is awesome in the real country. I had a pizza for breakfast (not breakfast pizza, real pizza) with a over easy egg on the center and it was amazing. You pulled a slice and ate the regular pizza and dipped your crust into the yolk. Good Lord! It's been over 30 yrs since then so I can't remember everything I ate there, but I didn't eat anything that wasn't over-the-top delicious.

In Frankfurt Red-Light district (yeah, we were there a few times) there was one hellova Gyros station. He had like a 8ft by 6ft cubby in the side of the building he sold his Gyros out of. You watched him slice it off the lamb before he put it in your sandwich. Again, Good Lord. Amazing.

Our kids are fat because their lazy and were raised by video games and fast food. TV dinners, pizza rolls, chips and as much soda as they can handle. Not all, but you know who they are when you Don't see them walking down the street or playing outside.

Sometimes I see people posting pictures of their kids on FB and every now and then there will be a seriously obese child. First thing that comes to mind is it's the parents/grandparents fault. That's child abuse. Kid's are a product of their environment. America needs to stop screwing up their kids. We need to make better decisions when it comes to raising kids.

[basballguy]

(09-01-2023, 04:53 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: That's an oversimplification. The argument isn't that the three bullet points are the cause of death, but that they contribute to a shorter life expectancy. 

Your life can be shortened by drugs/gun violence/lack of universal health care even if they are not the direct cause of death via overdose/murder etc.

What lol? All I’m doing is asking for data. I’m not the one making the bold claims without sourced info.

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If your issue is with the sources kindly take it up with them.

???

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: In Frankfurt Red-Light district (yeah, we were there a few times) there was one hellova Gyros station. He had like a 8ft by 6ft cubby in the side of the building he sold his Gyros out of. You watched him slice it off the lamb before he put it in your sandwich. Again, Good Lord. Amazing.

Maybe two blocks north of the train station? I may remember that. Good gyros all over Germany.

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Our kids are fat because their lazy and were raised by video games and fast food. TV dinners, pizza rolls, chips and as much soda as they can handle. Not all, but you know who they are when you Don't see them walking down the street or playing outside.

Sometimes I see people posting pictures of their kids on FB and every now and then there will be a seriously obese child. First thing that comes to mind is it's the parents/grandparents fault. That's child abuse. Kid's are a product of their environment. America needs to stop screwing up their kids. We need to make better decisions when it comes to raising kids.

Yeah. That is our "culture" now. But you aren't going to attack capitalism, are you--business' right to make a profit?   

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 09:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That seems aggressively pedantic. I think the top 10 have less combined population than Alaska or North Dakota, there's generally an accepted sample size requirement for rankings. Kuwait would certainly meet that requirement, though, pushing the US to 2nd.

You are referring to KG's data source, right? 

I find it surprising that the top 10 seem to be mostly Pacific Islands. 

Don't know if "acceptable sample size" applies to a ranking of sovereign nations, though,

if the goal is measure obesity rates in different sovereign nations.

[hollodero]

(09-02-2023, 10:06 AM)Dill Wrote: You are referring to KG's data source, right? 

I find it surprising that the top 10 seem to be mostly Pacific Islands. 

Yeah well, there's a reason why these islands sink into the ocean. Climate change, as if.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-02-2023, 10:48 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah well, there's a reason why these islands sink into the ocean. Climate change, as if.

Oh you mean it's not the Earth's natural cycling of events?? 


Should have told that to the people in Pompeii. Humans have been dealing with Earthquakes, Volcano Eruptions and drought since BC times. 

The forests is what we need to focus on. That's the Earth's natural defense to high levels of CO2. Everything else is miniscule compared to that.

LOL ok ok after re-reading i get the joke. I'm just starting to feel like an Anti-Trumper when someone mentions climate change.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-02-2023, 10:06 AM)Dill Wrote: You are referring to KG's data source, right? 

I find it surprising that the top 10 seem to be mostly Pacific Islands. 

Don't know if "acceptable sample size" applies to a ranking of sovereign nations, though,

if the goal is measure obesity rates in different sovereign nations.

Acceptable sample size certainly still applies to them. If 2 people from a country of 10,000 die from any single source in a accident, .02% of that country just died that year from that accident. That would be the same as it happening to a huge amount of people in the US.

That makes it pointless to put them in rankings. A single large family of 10 people having a genetic predisposition towards a medical condition would be the same as over 330,000 people in the US.

One of those counties were under 2,000 people.

If you honestly don't see how including them in any rankings of the world when 1 or 2 people can have the same statistical weight as hundreds of thousands is a problem, then you are being willfully ignorant.

[Dill]

(09-02-2023, 03:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If you honestly don't see how including them in any rankings of the world when 1 or 2 people can have the same statistical weight as hundreds of thousands is a problem, then you are being willfully ignorant.

Well I understand your points about "sample size," but I am not being "willfully ignorant."

I am just recognizing the goal of the study might be to include each and every sovereign nation in the world.

And I can see why those interested in global health data might want that information. They would likely regard
it as a starting point for study of obesity or genetics or other possibilities. And given those goals they might
think it a significant loss if "little countries" were not included. They would not likely regard the inclusion of micro-nations
as a great set up for pissing matches on U.S. message boards, though. Nor would the people who gathered the data.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-02-2023, 04:04 PM)Dill Wrote: Well I understand your points about "sample size," but I am not being "willfully ignorant."

I am just recognizing the goal of the study might be to include each and every sovereign nation in the world.

And I can see why those interested in global health data might want that information. They would likely regard
it as a starting point for study of obesity or genetics or other possibilities. And given those goals they might
think it a significant loss if "little countries" were not included. They would not likely regard the inclusion of micro-nations
as a great set up for pissing matches on U.S. message boards, though. Nor would the people who gathered the data.

Got it, so you've now turned this into you standing up for the little guy rather than just you being pedantic by refusing to acknowledge that talking about something on the scale of the entire planet, maybe including groups of 10,000 people (or even a group of 1,935 people) is not productive towards getting an actual picture of the situation.

1 person getting murdered in Niue means Niue is the most dangerous country on the planet even if 165,000 people get murdered in the US, because we aren't working with brains that accept reason, nuance, or scale. Got it.

Man, it is shocking how quickly I get reminded why PnR sucks. No wonder it's turned into the cesspit of non-conversation it is.

[Dill]

(09-02-2023, 05:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Got it, so you've now turned this into you standing up for the little guy rather than just you being pedantic by refusing to acknowledge that talking about something on the scale of the entire planet, maybe including groups of 10,000 people (or even a group of 1,935 people) is not productive towards getting an actual picture of the situation.

1 person getting murdered in Niue means Niue is the most dangerous country on the planet even if 165,000 people get murdered in the US, because we aren't working with brains that accept reason, nuance, or scale. Got it.

Man, it is shocking how quickly I get reminded why PnR sucks. No wonder it's turned into the cesspit of non-conversation it is.

???

I think we have different ideas about the goal of the data collection, the "actual picture" and "the situation" sought after there.

It was collected by the WORLD Health Organization. Don't they have an obligation to collect in every country?

Why would they leave out micro-nations, if they are collecting for the entire world? And what are they supposed to do
if a nation doesn't meet your demand for sample size? If 61% of the total population of Nauru meets the obesity
standard, why shouldn't the WHO report that? Were I a doctor/researcher working on genetics and obesity, I might
find that quite relevant and interesting. And I don't see how that would be "pedantic" or "standing up for the little guy."
I suppose you are attacking the little guy then, but I have no idea why. They skew our data, or don't make proper
samples?

Beyond that I don't know what to say. No idea why you are so angry or think my response = a "cesspit of non-conversation."

If you think there is some sort of skullduggery going on, why would you attack me rather than the WHO? I did not collect and
present the data.

[Millhouse]

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Our kids are fat because their lazy and were raised by video games and fast food. TV dinners, pizza rolls, chips and as much soda as they can handle. Not all, but you know who they are when you Don't see them walking down the street or playing outside.

Sometimes I see people posting pictures of their kids on FB and every now and then there will be a seriously obese child. First thing that comes to mind is it's the parents/grandparents fault. That's child abuse. Kid's are a product of their environment. America needs to stop screwing up their kids. We need to make better decisions when it comes to raising kids.

It does seem there has been an increase in laziness in this country for quite some time now. It's like the millions of able bodied people out there aren't working when there are plenty of jobs to be worked. And a lot of these jobs are the ones that typically required 'manly men' to work them. Again, I am just talking here, no data to support but a few others out there have talked about this same thing like Mike Rowe who did the show Dirty Jobs.

Even if we had universal healthcare, we need to address the above issue as well imo because doctors can only do so much for overweight lazy people with heart disease.

[*michaelsean*]

Tax food with empty calories like you do tobacco and alcohol. You know, because they are bad for you. I don’t actually agree with that, but the fact that we pick random things to put extra taxes in is pretty ridiculous. Overweight people cost us an enormous amount. I had a morbidly obese neighbor who was on disability his whole life. In his forty years he probably spent more than a year in the hospital at out expense. Never held a job for a day.

[*pally*]

(09-02-2023, 06:15 PM)Millhouse Wrote: It does seem there has been an increase in laziness in this country for quite some time now. It's like the millions of able bodied people out there aren't working when there are plenty of jobs to be worked. And a lot of these jobs are the ones that typically required 'manly men' to work them. Again, I am just talking here, no data to support but a few others out there have talked about this same thing like Mike Rowe who did the show Dirty Jobs.

Even if we had universal healthcare, we need to address the above issue as well imo because doctors can only do so much for overweight lazy people with heart disease.

It does sound so easy to say there are millions of jobs so get off your lazy butt and go get one…but hold on it’s far more complicated than that.

Those “millions” of so-called lazy people include full time students, people who are temporarily or permanently disabled, people too old to handle those “manly men” jobs, people unable to move or obtain transportation to where those jobs are located, full time caregivers to children or elderly parents, people who lack the training, experience, or licensures to obtain those jobs (yes, even for those manly men jobs), past criminal conviction, lack of a stable address and phone number, lack of ability to read or speak English. A job as a laborer at Rumpke Waste Company (a garbage man) lists a requirement to be able to read and communicate in English.

For millions of people these are very real barriers, not laziness, to any type of employment let alone hard physical labor. Figure out a way in a larger scale to remove some of these barriers and more people may enter the workforce p.

Find solutions for availability of 24 hour a day affordable childcare or elder care. One cannot work if the job is at hours where childcare isn’t available. And why work if your entire paycheck goes to pay someone else to take care of your kids?

Affordable obtainable healthcare could put people back into the workforce by allowing them to get treatment and medications for the medical conditions that prevent them from working.

Companies don’t want to train people anymore. Paying for training and licensing is out of reach for many people

Accessible financially and logistically English as a 2nd language classes.

There are solutions but they require a societal and governmental commitment and as a country we’re not there yet.

[*Nately120*]

(09-04-2023, 11:23 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Tax food with empty calories like you do tobacco and alcohol. You know, because they are bad for you. I don’t actually agree with that, but the fact that we pick random things to put extra taxes in is pretty ridiculous. Overweight people cost us an enormous amount. I had a morbidly obese neighbor who was on disability his whole life. In his forty years he probably spent more than a year in the hospital at out expense. Never held a job for a day.

The prognosis on this can't be good.  A few people make an obscene amount of money conditioning Americans to think stuff like carbonated syrup and other American dietary go-tos are not only A-OK, but daily essentials.  Then when the damage is done and the bill comes due it's sent to the American people.  I'm not perfect (only Curt Hennig is, really) but I try to steer clear of a lot of the bad stuff for preventative measures.  Even still, I often look at those amazingly good thin-mint knock off cookies at wal mart and when I see that price tag that is oh so low and I think about putting those things in the fridge and then eating damn near the whole tray of them as soon as I remember I have them, that's when I always point out how hard it is to avoid calories in this system we've made.

It's not a herculean feat to stay in shape in the USA, but I'll say that getting obese is becoming more of an inadvertent thing these days so I don't even mean any of this as a sort of "shame on them, shame on us" statement, it's just the way it is.  Our perspectives are pretty warped too.  I'm 5'10 and fluctuate between 170 and 180lbs and I saw the mother of one of my ex gfs somewhat recently and she complimented me with a "Wow, you're still skinny!"  The STILL indicating that everyone just gets fat eventually, and the SKINNY indicating that our concept of weight in this country is a bit titled.

Add in that amusingly morbid 600lb Life show where you have one family member who is 600+ pounds and the rest of the family is still obese but not like "stuck in a bed" obese and they see themselves as normal.  Oh, and I could ramble on about how our society increasingly equates food that might not (let's be honest, even the good stuff is bad) instantly kill you with being a wimpy homosexual.  I got the plant-based sausage at Cracker Barrel once just to make everyone mad.  I can admit that I'm fairly straight even though I got plant sausage and I may have owned an Oliva Newton John album at one point.  



t;dr - HEY HEY HEY I'm FAAAAAAAAAAAAAT Albert!

[*michaelsean*]

(09-05-2023, 08:55 AM)Nately120 Wrote: The prognosis on this can't be good.  A few people make an obscene amount of money conditioning Americans to think stuff like carbonated syrup and other American dietary go-tos are not only A-OK, but daily essentials.  Then when the damage is done and the bill comes due it's sent to the American people.  I'm not perfect (only Curt Hennig is, really) but I try to steer clear of a lot of the bad stuff for preventative measures.  Even still, I often look at those amazingly good thin-mint knock off cookies at wal mart and when I see that price tag that is oh so low and I think about putting those things in the fridge and then eating damn near the whole tray of them as soon as I remember I have them, that's when I always point out how hard it is to avoid calories in this system we've made.

It's not a herculean feat to stay in shape in the USA, but I'll say that getting obese is becoming more of an inadvertent thing these days so I don't even mean any of this as a sort of "shame on them, shame on us" statement, it's just the way it is.  Our perspectives are pretty warped too.  I'm 5'10 and fluctuate between 170 and 180lbs and I saw the mother of one of my ex gfs somewhat recently and she complimented me with a "Wow, you're still skinny!"  The STILL indicating that everyone just gets fat eventually, and the SKINNY indicating that our concept of weight in this country is a bit titled.

Add in that amusingly morbid 600lb Life show where you have one family member who is 600+ pounds and the rest of the family is still obese but not like "stuck in a bed" obese and they see themselves as normal.  Oh, and I could ramble on about how our society increasingly equates food that might not (let's be honest, even the good stuff is bad) instantly kill you with being a wimpy homosexual.  I got the plant-based sausage at Cracker Barrel once just to make everyone mad.  I can admit that I'm fairly straight even though I got plant sausage and I may have owned an Oliva Newton John album at one point.  



t;dr - HEY HEY HEY I'm FAAAAAAAAAAAAAT Albert!

Oh I’m far from perfect. 6’0 225. 20 lbs overweight by my standards and probably 40 lbs overweight on some chart.

I do love the 600 lb life family, like you said, all close to morbidly obese, and all thinking they are good to go because of the behemoth lying in the bed in the other room. Future stars of the show.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(09-01-2023, 06:06 PM)Dill Wrote: I doubt Americans or more obese than Germans, and they've got at least two years on us.

Healthcare may be the main difference.

Germany doesn't have universal healthcare, but they do require that everyone be covered,  and so
offer non-profit insurance options. People cannot be excluded for per-existing conditions.

The access is very good as well, or was when I lived there. Coming back to the U.S. I walked into
a mass of complicated forms and waiting lists. And generally double the cost for half the coverage.

(Surprised we haven't heard any stories yet about Canadians who come to the US because our
care is so much better.)

1. Care is 100% NOT better than us.
2. SSF said it best in terms of, "talent:" you guys have more cosmetic surgeons (a shit-ton more) and experimental surgeons, not to mention the athletic side of things, with the major 4 sports being headquartered in the country.

(09-01-2023, 07:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd hate to disappoint you.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-health-care-access-1.6574184

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care#:~:text=Canadians%20seek%20treatment%20abroad,care%20abroad%20the%20previous%20year.

Yeah, we don't.

Like, not at all.

If Canadians go down to the US for healthcare, it is for one of three things:

1. They need a cosmetic surgery that is not, "legal," in our country
2. They need an experimental or radical new surgery/treatment for their ailment (such as Lyme disease, of which you guys have many more experimental treatments), that is not, "legal," in our country.
3. They are American AND/or have copious amounts of money and just choose to skip the wait here.

There is one flaw with our system and it isn't the system's fault: long wait times.

The long wait times are due to not having enough insurance-covered doctors in the country, as the population has increased but the amount of doctors has not increased too much, thus for universal healthcare, you need to get in line and wait your turn.

But:

A. this isn't as bad as it seems and
B. those who are more in-need get moved up if necessary

Also the quality of care is phenomenal, I guarantee the hospital stay when my son was born was as good if not better than what you guys have down there and it was all free, again.

The dearth of doctors is the cause for long wait times, namely with specialists: there just aren't enough to serve all of the people need it.

I waited 5 weeks to have my cancer surgery, having a CT Scan and MRI in between my initial appointment and the surgery itself, then biopsies for the malignant tissue, followed by 5 years (ended up being 6 due to moving to Calgary lol) of follow-up appointments.

All free, didn't pay a cent.

Sure you may get seen in 2 weeks if you get seen in the US, but how much will it cost out of pocket? Unless I'm literally on my deathbed, I'll wait even 2 months longer to get seen, if it is free, thank you.

A co-worker had a Burrow and Carsone injury back in January and had her surgery in March, followed by physiotherapy and rehab ever since. All free.

Yes, she waited a little over 2 months, but all free.

People coming down to the US is like the bullshit convoy from last year: sure, SOME people may be doing it and SOME people may not like the healthcare, but that's literally like 7% of the entire affected population and I can promise that 6.5% of said population, have the financial means to come down to the US.

Also, in that first article, Perth and the place that guy are from are rural towns, where not only is there less healthcare setup, but they also lean HEAVILY to the right, politically and who is the small minority advocating for privatised healthcare in Canada?

Exactly.

EDIT* I realise that it sounds snarky, but it wasn't my intention: I'm just sick of the narrative that we hate our free healthcare, when the overwhelming majority have no issues with it at all, outside of long wait times.

And I will say that between my wife and myself, since 2011, we have had to go to the hospital a combined 7 times for various things: the longest either of us had to wait to be seen or to receive care, was *maybe* 20 minutes.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-05-2023, 04:57 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: 1. Care is 100% NOT better than us.
2. SSF said it best in terms of, "talent:" you guys have more cosmetic surgeons (a shit-ton more) and experimental surgeons, not to mention the athletic side of things, with the major 4 sports being headquartered in the country.


Yeah, we don't.

Like, not at all.

If Canadians go down to the US for healthcare, it is for one of three things:

1. They need a cosmetic surgery that is not, "legal," in our country
2. They need an experimental or radical new surgery/treatment for their ailment (such as Lyme disease, of which you guys have many more experimental treatments), that is not, "legal," in our country.
3. They are American AND/or have copious amounts of money and just choose to skip the wait here.

There is one flaw with our system and it isn't the system's fault: long wait times.

The long wait times are due to not having enough insurance-covered doctors in the country, as the population has increased but the amount of doctors has not increased too much, thus for universal healthcare, you need to get in line and wait your turn.

But:

A. this isn't as bad as it seems and
B. those who are more in-need get moved up if necessary

Also the quality of care is phenomenal, I guarantee the hospital stay when my son was born was as good if not better than what you guys have down there and it was all free, again.

The dearth of doctors is the cause for long wait times, namely with specialists: there just aren't enough to serve all of the people need it.

I waited 5 weeks to have my cancer surgery, having a CT Scan and MRI in between my initial appointment and the surgery itself, then biopsies for the malignant tissue, followed by 5 years (ended up being 6 due to moving to Calgary lol) of follow-up appointments.

All free, didn't pay a cent.

Sure you may get seen in 2 weeks if you get seen in the US, but how much will it cost out of pocket? Unless I'm literally on my deathbed, I'll wait even 2 months longer to get seen, if it is free, thank you.

A co-worker had a Burrow and Carsone injury back in January and had her surgery in March, followed by physiotherapy and rehab ever since. All free.

Yes, she waited a little over 2 months, but all free.

People coming down to the US is like the bullshit convoy from last year: sure, SOME people may be doing it and SOME people may not like the healthcare, but that's literally like 7% of the entire affected population and I can promise that 6.5% of said population, have the financial means to come down to the US.

Also, in that first article, Perth and the place that guy are from are rural towns, where not only is there less healthcare setup, but they also lean HEAVILY to the right, politically and who is the small minority advocating for privatised healthcare in Canada?

Exactly.

EDIT* I realise that it sounds snarky, but it wasn't my intention: I'm just sick of the narrative that we hate our free healthcare, when the overwhelming majority have no issues with it at all, outside of long wait times.

And I will say that between my wife and myself, since 2011, we have had to go to the hospital a combined 7 times for various things: the longest either of us had to wait to be seen or to receive care, was *maybe* 20 minutes.

I just wish you’d stop saying it’s free. There is no cost at the time of treatment. It may still be cheaper to you, but it’s not free.