Why is religion...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Why is religion the cause of most wars and the most death and the most suffering in the world?

I read and hear this claim all the time, even though it is completely untrue.

I would just like to know why people make this claim.

[CKwi88]

(07-07-2017, 10:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Why is religion the cause of most wars and the most death and the most suffering in the world?

I read and hear this claim all the time, even though it is completely untrue.

I would just like to know why people make this claim.

I hardly think that religion is the cause of most wars and all that (at least in modern times), but here's my take as a on-the-whole non-religious person:

Religion just gives us another unnecessary way to classify and build barriers between certain subsets of humanity. Given that it is an exercise in futility to try and argue that one religion is "more real" than the other, it inevitably leads to conflict. With more rational arguments and debates where concrete evidence or fact is involved, that doesn't exist with religion. What makes the The Holy Bible any more true or holy than The Holy Quran? How about the Torah, or Tripitaka? What makes Jesus any more a deity than Allah? There's no room for rational debate here. And when there is no room for rational discourse in a conflict, more often than not violence ensues. 

The ironic part of it all is that by and large the teachings of each religion are quite similar. If instead of clinging to proper names like Bible, Quran, Jesus, Yahweh, Allah people of religion clung to the teachings themselves, the world would undoubtedly be a better place. 

On the whole, I do not blame religion, I blame humanity's intolerance and stubbornness. The wars and violence get all the headlines, but religion on the personal level can hardly be considered harmful. 

[Benton]

My opinion:
Power is the cause of most conflict. People use religion, race, nationality, etc to gain power.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-07-2017, 11:56 PM)Benton Wrote: My opinion:
Power is the cause of most conflict. People use religion, race, nationality, etc to gain power.

This. 

As long as there is power to gain someone will always step in to seize it. There was a lot of land and resource grabbing going on in the past with kingdoms attacking each other all the time because they wanted to be powerful and seen as such.

Even some wars that are classified as religous wars aren't exclusively about religion. There's a mix of "I want to have more land and be more pwerful than everyone else" thrown in there too.

[Belsnickel]

(07-07-2017, 11:56 PM)Benton Wrote: My opinion:
Power is the cause of most conflict. People use religion, race, nationality, etc to gain power.

(07-08-2017, 01:57 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: This. 

As long as there is power to gain someone will always step in to seize it. There was a lot of land and resource grabbing going on in the past with kingdoms attacking each other all the time because they wanted to be powerful and seen as such.

Even some wars that are classified as religous wars aren't exclusively about religion. There's a mix of "I want to have more land and be more pwerful than everyone else" thrown in there too.

I was going to say something similar. Power and greed are what is at the base of every war. Every other reason is just an excuse used to justify an attempt to gain power and/or resources. The Islamic State isn't a truly religious thing, it's about power and resources. Religion just gives them a way to recruit effectively and justify their actions. This is why when we target religions for the actions of groups like IS and AQ it has negative effects that play into their hands more often than not.

[Vlad]

(07-08-2017, 07:42 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I was going to say something similar. Power and greed are what is at the base of every war. Every other reason is just an excuse used to justify an attempt to gain power and/or resources. The Islamic State isn't a truly religious thing, it's about power and resources. Religion just gives them a way to recruit effectively and justify their actions. This is why when we target religions for the actions of groups like IS and AQ it has negative effects that play into their hands more often than not.

A bit naïve to suggest the Islamic State isn't a religious thing when mountains of evidence exist to prove otherwise.

Their religious beliefs are why they do what they do.

[Vlad]

(07-07-2017, 10:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Why is religion the cause of most wars and the most death and the most suffering in the world?

I read and hear this claim all the time, even though it is completely untrue.

I would just like to know why people make this claim.

That's true of all religions if you're living in the dark ages.

But you are correct, religion being the cause of most wars and death is a myth.
When in fact secular or atheist governments have been responsible for the most wars and death....Stalins Russia, Mao's China, Pol Pot, Japan and its atrocities, Idi Amin.

Islam is the only major threat today. A religion to have not evolved from the dark ages, continuing to literally cling to its age old tenets. They still stone women.
As the world becomes more and more secular, Islam is growing.

[Belsnickel]

(07-08-2017, 09:31 AM)Vlad Wrote: A bit naïve to suggest the Islamic State isn't a religious thing when mountains of evidence exist to prove otherwise.

Their religious beliefs are why they do what they do.

There are mountains of evidence that point to their corruption of the faith of Islam. People corrupt religion to serve their needs and interpret its teachings to provide confirmation of preconceived notions. The Islamic State does it, the Westboro Baptist Church does it, the Catholic Church does it, Hindus in India do it, you're doing it with this post I've quoted.

[xxlt]

(07-07-2017, 10:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Why is religion the cause of most wars and the most death and the most suffering in the world?

I read and hear this claim all the time, even though it is completely untrue.

I would just like to know why people make this claim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

Some interesting numbers above from (radical left website?) Wikipedia. People can, obviously, choose to acknowledge the role of religion in the numbers or not.

I have often heard the above claim about religion war and death made, and wondered on what facts the claim is based. I am curious also about on what facts the conclusion "it is completely untrue" regarding the allegation about the connection between religion wars and death is based?

[xxlt]

(07-08-2017, 10:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There are mountains of evidence that point to their corruption of the faith of Islam. People corrupt religion to serve their needs and interpret its teachings to provide confirmation of preconceived notions. The Islamic State does it, the Westboro Baptist Church does it, the Catholic Church does it, Hindus in India do it, you're doing it with this post I've quoted.

Clearly the Westboro Baptist Church does not represent all of Christendom. However, it seems disingenuous to say it is not a religious group, specifically one falling under the broad heading of Christianity. I'm not sure I understand your position in this discussion. Can you clarify?

[Belsnickel]

(07-08-2017, 10:51 AM)xxlt Wrote: Clearly the Westboro Baptist Church does not represent all of Christendom. However, it seems disingenuous to say it is not a religious group, specifically one falling under the broad heading of Christianity. I'm not sure I understand your position in this discussion. Can you clarify?

I'm not saying any of these groups are not religious groups, I'm saying all of these groups corrupt the faith to suit their needs and provide confirmations of preconceived ideals. It's a human behavior that exists in every religion.

[xxlt]

(07-08-2017, 11:02 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not saying any of these groups are not religious groups, I'm saying all of these groups corrupt the faith to suit their needs and provide confirmations of preconceived ideals. It's a human behavior that exists in every religion.

So if we are trying to honestly assess the claim made and rejected (sans data in both cases) in the OP do we omit from the tally of deaths and wars caused by religion those deaths and wars traceable to someone(s) who "corrupted" a religion?

Example: Jim Jones People's Temple (in 1978) 918 people died (some would say they suicided, some would say Jones murdered them, but that's another debate for another day) in Jonestown, Guyana. Do we count those as deaths attributable to religion? Or do we say he corrupted religion or it was a cult of personality so those deaths don't count?

[Beaker]

All religions arose from early man's attempt to explain the unknown. Different factions arose as disagreements about those explanations came to light. As people grouped into the religion that either best served them, or was passed to them by their parents, those groupings separated people under the umbrella of said religion.

Biologically and anthropologically speaking, there has been an evolutionary advantage to humans grouping together and sharing/protecting/acquiring resources. It started with family groups, then tribes and so forth. Modern apes today still band together in these groups. Religions are simply huge extensions of these groups. People in power now had large groups to manipulate. It became very easy to see anyone not in your group as less human and therefore easier to justify being killed.

With advances in science, you are now seeing previously unknown questions that were "explained" by religion being answered more and more. I think this is a major reason you see the drop off in religious beliefs. But humans will always find a way to kill those who are not members of their group when it suits their needs. You see the exact opposite effect when dangers threaten one or more groups...they band together, and put aside their differences to face the common danger. If aliens threatened all of humanity, you can bet religious differences would go out the window.

IMO religion will become less and less realistic as humans uncover more and more of the mysteries of the universe. But I also believe that humans will never end wars between groups. If religion went away, we would find other groupings to separate us.

[xxlt]

(07-08-2017, 11:35 AM)Beaker Wrote: All religions arose from early man's attempt to explain the unknown. Different factions arose as disagreements about those explanations came to light. As people grouped into the religion that either best served them, or was passed to them by their parents, those groupings separated people under the umbrella of said religion.

Biologically and anthropologically speaking, there has been an evolutionary advantage to humans grouping together and sharing/protecting/acquiring resources. It started with family groups, then tribes and so forth. Modern apes today still band together in these groups. Religions are simply huge extensions of these groups. People in power now had large groups to manipulate. It became very easy to see anyone not in your group as less human and therefore easier to justify being killed.

With advances in science, you are now seeing previously unknown questions that were "explained" by religion being answered more and more. I think this is a major reason you see the drop off in religious beliefs. But humans will always find a way to kill those who are not members of their group when it suits their needs. You see the exact opposite effect when dangers threaten one or more groups...they band together, and put aside their differences to face the common danger. If aliens threatened all of humanity, you can bet religious differences would go out the window.

IMO religion will become less and less realistic as humans uncover more and more of the mysteries of the universe. But I also believe that humans will never end wars between groups. If religion went away, we would find other groupings to separate us.

Same with sports fans.

Example: there is a "Browns Backers" club in damn near every town in America.

And this is the logo of a minor league baseball team:



Yes, that means there is a "tribe" of fans who wear this ^ symbol to proudly proclaim their membership.

[Belsnickel]

(07-08-2017, 11:10 AM)xxlt Wrote: So if we are trying to honestly assess the claim made and rejected (sans data in both cases) in the OP do we omit from the tally of deaths and wars caused by religion those deaths and wars traceable to someone(s) who "corrupted" a religion?

Example: Jim Jones People's Temple (in 1978) 918 people died (some would say they suicided, some would say Jones murdered them, but that's another debate for another day) in Jonestown, Guyana. Do we count those as deaths attributable to religion? Or do we say he corrupted religion or it was a cult of personality so those deaths don't count?

I would say cult in your example, but almost every death/war I can think of based on religion had ulterior motives and religion was only used by those in power to gain support.

[xxlt]

(07-08-2017, 04:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would say cult in your example, but almost every death/war I can think of based on religion had ulterior motives and religion was only used by those in power to gain support.

You know its funny. It feels like a lot of religious folk would agree with you. But it is like they want to assert the primacy of religion when it can take credit for anything good, and then deny it had any role in anything bad. It just seems intellectually dishonest to me. But then, some people say religion isn't an intellectual endeavor - it's all about faith and facts and logic don't matter. I don't know...

[Dill]

(07-07-2017, 10:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Why is religion the cause of most wars and the most death and the most suffering in the world?
I read and hear this claim all the time, even though it is completely untrue.
I would just like to know why people make this claim.

Just my two cents--I think wars have many causes. If one wants to understand how they arise, how to end them, or how to prevent them, religion and notions of "greed" and "power" don't have much explanatory power, though they may work in some combination in some cases.

On the other hand, I think that concepts like "identity" and "security" are very helpful. Peaceful people may turn quickly to war for reasons of basic security. If they rally around a religious identity, that does not make their religion the "cause."  When basic security is disrupted, it also tends to disrupt identity, especially where tied to social status. Religion may help repair the damage.

So from a geographical and cultural distance, a group like ISIS, which arose in a security vacuum and is led by former Iraqi military officers who once had high social status and control of their country, may appear to be all about religion, since they call themselves the Islamic State and claim Allah as their ground of legitimacy, or about power if you are skeptical of their sincerity. But neither religion nor greed nor lust for power would have created ISIS had not the US invaded Iraq and Syria had not collapsed. And if ISIS is wiped out, they will simply be replaced by a similar religious movement, so long as the same security conditions remain in Syria and Iraq.

One cannot prevent "religion" or greed or lust for power, but one can construct policies that support rather than undermine the identity and security of people. Post war Europe was able to do that for 45 years (if you don't count colonial wars).

[Belsnickel]

(07-09-2017, 10:36 AM)xxlt Wrote: You know its funny. It feels like a lot of religious folk would agree with you. But it is like they want to assert the primacy of religion when it can take credit for anything good, and then deny it had any role in anything bad. It just seems intellectually dishonest to me. But then, some people say religion isn't an intellectual endeavor - it's all about faith and facts and logic don't matter. I don't know...

What's funny to me is that I just read this after changing into basketball shorts and a tshirt after coming home from church.

But in all seriousness, my faith teaches me that every person is responsible for their own actions. Each person is both a sinner and a saint and to blame their actions on teachings of your religion, whether good or bad, is pointless. My particular brand of Christianity teaches us that using, interpreting it, to affirm our opinions is not how we are supposed to use scripture. But, that is what a ton of people do. They don't start with the scripture, they start with an opinion that they want to affirm. That is what leads to this corruption of religion, and it happens because people are human, and humans are flawed.

[xxlt]

(07-09-2017, 12:09 PM)Dill Wrote: Just my two cents--I think wars have many causes. If one wants to understand how they arise, how to end them, or how to prevent them, religion and notions of "greed" and "power" don't have much explanatory power, though they may work in some combination in some cases.

On the other hand, I think that concepts like "identity" and "security" are very helpful. Peaceful people may turn quickly to war for reasons of basic security. If they rally around a religious identity, that does not make their religion the "cause."  When basic security is disrupted, it also tends to disrupt identity, especially where tied to social status. Religion may help repair the damage.

So from a geographical and cultural distance, a group like ISIS, which arose in a security vacuum and is led by former Iraqi military officers who once had high social status and control of their country, may appear to be all about religion, since they call themselves the Islamic State and claim Allah as their ground of legitimacy, or about power if you are skeptical of their sincerity. But neither religion nor greed nor lust for power would have created ISIS had not the US invaded Iraq and Syria had not collapsed. And if ISIS is wiped out, they will simply be replaced by a similar religious movement, so long as the same security conditions remain in Syria and Iraq.

One cannot prevent "religion" or greed or lust for power, but one can construct policies that support rather than undermine the identity and security of people. Post war Europe was able to do that for 45 years (if you don't count colonial wars).

As usual, interesting take. I think there is a chicken and egg thing though, and I would be willing to flip your line of thought around a bit. Rather than identity being threatened and people rallying around religion I think it often goes in the opposite direction. People rally around religion and it is their identity, and part of the operative system of keeping it that way is to convince the faithful there are constant threats to their religious identity. Godless communism will destroy our church if we don't fight them over there before they come over here and Sharia Law will destroy our superior faith if we don't fight them over there... don't those sound like familiar ideas that set people up to back Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq? If the faithful weren't in constant fear of some "bear in the woods" that was gonna come and poop in their temple I am not so sure they would be so quick to send Johnny marching off to battle (again and again and again). I have a degree of respect for religion, particularly the more universal themes running through it as highlighted most effectively and beautifully by Joseph Campbell, but I think you and Bels are letting institutional religion off the hook too easily in this discussion.

[xxlt]

(07-09-2017, 12:11 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What's funny to me is that I just read this after changing into basketball shorts and a tshirt after coming home from church.

But in all seriousness, my faith teaches me that every person is responsible for their own actions. Each person is both a sinner and a saint and to blame their actions on teachings of your religion, whether good or bad, is pointless. My particular brand of Christianity teaches us that using, interpreting it, to affirm our opinions is not how we are supposed to use scripture. But, that is what a ton of people do. They don't start with the scripture, they start with an opinion that they want to affirm. That is what leads to this corruption of religion, and it happens because people are human, and humans are flawed.

It's ok, I'm on your side. The prophet Isaiah wants you to play basketball today! And he also wants you to shoot every time you get the ball. Screw loving your teammate as yourself. Jesus loves a shooter!

We've discussed your sect before, and I think I would dig most of what y'all are about, even though I'm an agnostic with loose ties to the UU Church.