Why is religion...

[GMDino]

(07-11-2017, 10:02 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It seems that you're alluding to the theory that "One cannot/can be moral without God" that both atheists and believers argue about. I'd like to say that even though someone may be doing something immoral does not mean that they are void of any morality. It bugs me that people talk about morality in absolutes as if to say you are either moral or immoral and there is no in-between. Well truth is no one is completely moral or immoral. Morality to me is not a permanent attribute that one has, but is instead something that is applied situationally. People like to act like they are infinitely moral because they believe/don't believe in God but this is simply not the case.

No, I meant that people (some/many?) are always looking for a "way". And if that way promises you riches (now or in the afterlife) in return for your loyalty (and money) it's fairly easy to get them to follow you along.

Whether that comes from a god or from a flag.

[Beaker]

People remember what is most recent. Most recently, religion in the form of Muslim extremists has been the cause of much death and suffering of innocent people. Things like the crusades and the inquisition also come to mind a mainly religion based dark events. Even the holocaust was based upon religion under a larger umbrella of a power and resources grab by Hitler. But again all these instances fall under the heading of separating humans by group. I think that is the greatest harm religion does. People claim religion brings people together....and it does. But at the same time, it is also separating people as they are coming together as part of that group.

The biggest problem I have with religion is that each one claims to be "the way". Obviously this cannot be the case given the many different religions. There very well may have been some divine inspiration at the beginning of humankind, but the fracture of religion into so many subsets means that "truth" was fractured also. Each religion may contain elements of the truth, but no one religion is now the entire truth. People need to realize that we are all part of the same whole, and that what you do to others you are simply doing to yourself.

Morality itself is relative. What one religion considers moral, another considers amoral. I think humans naturally become more moral as we become more civilized. If religion disappeared today, I don't think we would be any less moral than we are now. If you do think that, then you are admitting that religion is based in fear....fear of eternal damnation. I have contended for quite some time that religion is based more in fear than in love. And that is the other problem I have with it. Nothing based inherently in fear can be good for humans.

[Bengalzona]

(07-11-2017, 10:32 AM)Beaker Wrote: People remember what is most recent. Most recently, religion in the form of Muslim extremists has been the cause of much death and suffering of innocent people. Things like the crusades and the inquisition also come to mind a mainly religion based dark events. Even the holocaust was based upon religion under a larger umbrella of a power and resources grab by Hitler. But again all these instances fall under the heading of separating humans by group. I think that is the greatest harm religion does. People claim religion brings people together....and it does. But at the same time, it is also separating people as they are coming together as part of that group.

In my view, the Crusades and Inquisition were events caused by organized religion seeking more political power. The Holocaust was about a movement in a nation seeking to turn that nation into a religion. They are efforts to combine religion and political control. Muslim extremist groups like ISIS fall under this heading as well. The combination of religion and politics, through nationalism in modern society, is the Holy Grail (so to speak) of population control for those who seek control. This is why the combination of the two ALWAYS corrupts.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-11-2017, 10:19 AM)GMDino Wrote: No, I meant that people (some/many?) are always looking for a "way". And if that way promises you riches (now or in the afterlife) in return for your loyalty (and money) it's fairly easy to get them to follow you along.

Whether that comes from a god or from a flag.

My response was about the second part of your post. But in response to that first part, while religion can be perverted we also have to keep In mind that not everyone who follows or has followed a religion has did so because they wanted to. 

Don't want to follow us? We'll behead you. Want to run away? We'll find your whole family and kill them. Some people follow groups like ISIS or other extremist groups simply out of fear for their lives or their families lives and not because they are particularly glued to their beliefs. If you want a secular example of that just look at North Korea.

[GMDino]

(07-11-2017, 02:18 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: My response was about the second part of your post. But in response to that first part, while religion can be perverted we also have to keep In mind that not everyone who follows or has followed a religion has did so because they wanted to. 

Don't want to follow us? We'll behead you. Want to run away? We'll find your whole family and kill them. Some people follow groups like ISIS or other extremist groups simply out of fear for their lives or their families lives and not because they are particularly glued to their beliefs. If you want a secular example of that just look at North Korea.

Well aware that many are not there simply because they want to be.  Many are simply born into it.

I'm listening to a podcast right now about a cult and how they encouraged increasing numbers of children to help swell their ranks.

Ruling by fear is also bad. Whether it is religious or political.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-11-2017, 10:32 AM)Beaker Wrote: People remember what is most recent. Most recently, religion in the form of Muslim extremists has been the cause of much death and suffering of innocent people. Things like the crusades and the inquisition also come to mind a mainly religion based dark events. Even the holocaust was based upon religion under a larger umbrella of a power and resources grab by Hitler. But again all these instances fall under the heading of separating humans by group. I think that is the greatest harm religion does. People claim religion brings people together....and it does. But at the same time, it is also separating people as they are coming together as part of that group.

But again, it goes back to my point that it's easy for people to sit there and go, "Look at the Crusades and the Inquisition" because those events are easily identifiable as "religious" because of how they are associated with religion. It's a lot harder for someone to associate conflicts with "lack of religion" as a cause because that's not really an identifiable thing, at least not at the very surface.

You say that religion divides people and I don't think you're wrong about that, but I don't think "division" should be a reason for someone to want religion gone or to be overly critical of it. Division isn't something that is exclusive to religion. The fact that we even have an economy creates division just like the fact that we have government creates division. Whenever you inject something into society in which people are allowed to have an opinion about. you naturally create division, not because what was created is bad, but because human beings are naturally opinionated and these opinions can ultimately lead to conflict of interests. 

Not all Republicans are just "Republicans" just as all Democrats are not just "Democrats". While they may be of the same party (like christians are all christian or muslims all muslim), they don't all have the same view on how to run things or how the world should be entirely. There's different factions in every political party because everyone thinks their views on policy and law are "the way". That's why there's capitalism, socialism, communism, facism and all the other ideologies or forms of government out there that people latch onto because people like to think differently because that's how we operate as human beings, not because religion made it that way.

Quote:The biggest problem I have with religion is that each one claims to be "the way". Obviously this cannot be the case given the many different religions. There very well may have been some divine inspiration at the beginning of humankind, but the fracture of religion into so many subsets means that "truth" was fractured also. Each religion may contain elements of the truth, but no one religion is now the entire truth. People need to realize that we are all part of the same whole, and that what you do to others you are simply doing to yourself.

But I guess my question is what makes it wrong for them to claim that they are the way? Because there are different religions? I'm not sure that is a good enough reason for someone to not claim their religion is the way. If someone truly believes that God is "revealing the truth to them" then it's hard for them to not teach that they are "the way" given that they believe they possess the truth because God gave it to them.

Quote:Morality itself is relative. What one religion considers moral, another considers amoral. I think humans naturally become more moral as we become more civilized. If religion disappeared today, I don't think we would be any less moral than we are now. If you do think that, then you are admitting that religion is based in fear....fear of eternal damnation. I have contended for quite some time that religion is based more in fear than in love. And that is the other problem I have with it. Nothing based inherently in fear can be good for humans.

What do you mean by if religion disappeared?