Why no one (not even the U.S.) can fix the middle east.

[fredtoast]

The middle east problem will not end as long as their politics is all based on religious beliefs.

Killing thousands of them will not help.

Removing heads of state will not help.

Stationing thousands of out troops and spending billions of dollars over there will not help.

We just need to wash our hands of the whole situation. No need to have any of our soldiers killed in a useless cause. None of them have any military ability to strike us. The only threat is from terrorism and no amount of military intervention in the middle east by the United States can protect us from the threat of terrorism.

In fact it seems to me that if we pulled out of there a lot of them would stop caring so much about us. Right now the major problem most of them have with us is our support of Isreal and having troops in Saudi Arabia. If we pulled out then they would be much mor concerned with killing each other than attacking the us.

[Arturo Bandini]

It's another way of thinking.

They live by strength and only by strength.

[Benton]

That's been my feeling for a decade or so. You can't force a change in ideology. If we stop spending billions on Israel and the Saudis, there wouldn't he the threat to us.

[*wildcats forever*]

We have too many greedy creeps in DC to leave, as there's still money to be made there. Don't expect this to change in the near future.

[Millhouse]

Cant argue with any of that. An OSU professor told us 15sh years ago that a main reason many countries won't ever elevate to 1st world status is because of the government is ran by religion, like most middle east countries are. Turkey is a great example of getting closer and closer to 1st world status, as they are heavily Muslim, but they dont have a government ran by the Quran. If the rest of the middle east followed Turkey, many of the problems we see on the news over there wouldnt exist.

Off-topic but I do wonder what that part of the world would be like if 1. Israel was placed somewhere like up in Canada, 2. if the cold war didn't occur, and 3. which is perhaps the most important is if there was no oil over there.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-01-2015, 10:15 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Cant argue with any of that. An OSU professor told us 15sh years ago that a main reason many countries won't ever elevate to 1st world status is because of the government is ran by religion, like most middle east countries are. Turkey is a great example of getting closer and closer to 1st world status, as they are heavily Muslim, but they dont have a government ran by the Quran. If the rest of the middle east followed Turkey, many of the problems we see on the news over there wouldnt exist.

Off-topic but  I do wonder what that part of the world would be like if 1. Israel was placed somewhere like up in Canada, 2. if the cold war didn't occur, and 3. which is perhaps the most important is if there was no oil over there.

If #3 were true, they would be of no consequence.

[GodHatesBengals]

If there was nothing valuable for us to exploit in the Middle East, America would just stay the hell out and let them eat each other. Everybody knows that.

What the Middle East needs is the same thing Puritan America needed, and Christian Europe needed: a strong secularist-rationalist movement.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 10:15 PM)Millhouse Wrote:  3. which is perhaps the most important is if there was no oil over there.

(10-01-2015, 10:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If #3 were true, they would be of no consequence.

(10-01-2015, 10:24 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: If there was nothing valuable for us to exploit in the Middle East, America would just stay the hell out and let them eat each other. Everybody knows that.

What the Middle East needs is the same thing Puritan America needed, and Christian Europe needed: a strong secularist-rationalist movement.

Think of the money we would save in military spending if we could develop an alternative energy source that would make oil irrelevant.

We know we are going to have to do it someday.  Why not get a jump on the issue.  I saw where China is spending ten times as much as the United States on developing solar power.  And that is despite the fact that their GDP is still only about one third of the United States.

[Rotobeast]

(10-02-2015, 12:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Think of the money we would save in military spending if we could develop an alternative energy source that would make oil irrelevant.

We know we are going to have to do it someday.  Why not get a jump on the issue.  I saw where China is spending ten times as much as the United States on developing solar power.  And that is despite the fact that their GDP is still only about one third of the United States.

There have been plenty of alternatives developed.
The oil companies bought up all the patents and are even rumored to have eliminated the opposition who wouldn't sell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

[Beaker]

(10-02-2015, 12:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Think of the money we would save in military spending if we could develop an alternative energy source that would make oil irrelevant.

We know we are going to have to do it someday.  Why not get a jump on the issue.  I saw where China is spending ten times as much as the United States on developing solar power.  And that is despite the fact that their GDP is still only about one third of the United States.

I have said this for years. The oil will run out. Why are we not developing both alternative sources, and the infrastructure necessary to deliver them? Oil riches in those countries have allowed terrorism to be funded. For example, Bib Laden was a Saudi from a wealthy family. If those countries lost their oil revenue, they would be inconsequential once again. On top of that would be the added benefit of both sustainability and less pollution and greenhouse gases.

The main reason this doesn't happen is two fold in my opinion. First, the oil lobbyists. Second, Americans are too comfortable with a cheap energy source to want to worry about making a change.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(10-03-2015, 01:07 PM)Beaker Wrote: I have said this for years. The oil will run out. Why are we not developing both alternative sources, and the infrastructure necessary to deliver them? Oil riches in those countries have allowed terrorism to be funded. For example, Bib Laden was a Saudi from a wealthy family. If those countries lost their oil revenue, they would be inconsequential once again. On top of that would be the added benefit of both sustainability and less pollution and greenhouse gases.

The main reason this doesn't happen is two fold in my opinion. First, the oil lobbyists. Second, Americans are too comfortable with a cheap energy source to want to worry about making a change.

Spot on.  I would love it if we could make the Middle East irrelevant.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-03-2015, 01:28 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Spot on.  I would love it if we could make the Middle East irrelevant.

We could if we started drilling on our lands.  Environmental restrictions keep the Middle East relevant in the oil business.   

[GMDino]

(10-02-2015, 12:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Think of the money we would save in military spending if we could develop an alternative energy source that would make oil irrelevant.

We know we are going to have to do it someday.  Why not get a jump on the issue.  I saw where China is spending ten times as much as the United States on developing solar power.  And that is despite the fact that their GDP is still only about one third of the United States.

(10-02-2015, 12:46 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: There have been plenty of alternatives developed.
The oil companies bought up all the patents and are even rumored to have eliminated the opposition who wouldn't sell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

(10-03-2015, 01:07 PM)Beaker Wrote: I have said this for years. The oil will run out. Why are we not developing both alternative sources, and the infrastructure necessary to deliver them? Oil riches in those countries have allowed terrorism to be funded. For example, Bib Laden was a Saudi from a wealthy family. If those countries lost their oil revenue, they would be inconsequential once again. On top of that would be the added benefit of both sustainability and less pollution and greenhouse gases.

The main reason this doesn't happen is two fold in my opinion. First, the oil lobbyists. Second, Americans are too comfortable with a cheap energy source to want to worry about making a change.

(10-03-2015, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We could if we started drilling on our lands.  Environmental restrictions keep the Middle East relevant in the oil business.   

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(10-03-2015, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We could if we started drilling on our lands.  Environmental restrictions keep the Middle East relevant in the oil business.   

So we know that oil is a finite resource and your solution is "lets drill on environmentally protected lands".  We are going to have to find a more sustainable and renewable source of energy anyway, might as well get started now.

So here's the recap:  Drill on protected land, screw the environment.  Or, find a cleaner energy solution, and start getting the infrastructure in place now.

I like the latter idea.

[Interceptor]

But hasn't that region lived that way for a few thousand years?

[StLucieBengal]

(10-03-2015, 02:35 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: So we know that oil is a finite resource and your solution is "lets drill on environmentally protected lands".  We are going to have to find a more sustainable and renewable source of energy anyway, might as well get started now.

So here's the recap:  Drill on protected land, screw the environment.  Or, find a cleaner energy solution, and start getting the infrastructure in place now.

I like the latter idea.

Drill for now, crush the Middle East economically, and in the meantime look for alternatives to oil. We shouldn't let enemies get stronger while we are looking for alternatives.

[Blutarsky]

(10-03-2015, 01:28 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Spot on.  I would love it if we could make the Middle East irrelevant. 

Not by stopping oil imports from that region. The U.S. remains the #1 oil producer in the world, and most of the oil we need to import comes from Canada, Mexico and Central America. Saudi Arabia is a minor player and the only Middle Eastern we import oil from..

Supposedly oil will run out some day. Alternative energy sources are only good for one thing...to conserve oil, not to replace it.
Oil is the lifeblood of the world. There is no other substitute.

I don't ever expect a C-5 cargo jet delivering supplies to a earthquake ravaged county on the other side of the world to be flying on solar power.
....even though solar flight has been accomplished.

[JustWinBaby]

(10-03-2015, 07:09 PM)Blutarsky Wrote: I don't ever expect a C-5 cargo jet delivering supplies to a earthquake ravaged county on the other side of the world to be flying on solar power.
....even though solar flight has been accomplished.

I suspect the vast majority of oil is used for heating homes, cars and producing electricity.

There are alternatives, but they are economically and/or environmentally unviable.  But this is changing, and 20 years from now things will probably be very different.

[Beaker]

(10-03-2015, 07:09 PM)Blutarsky Wrote: Supposedly oil will run out some day. Alternative energy sources are only good for one thing...to conserve oil, not to replace it.
Oil is the lifeblood of the world. There is no other substitute.

There are plenty of other substitutes besides solar power. There are even substitutes from technologies not perfected yet (example cold fusion). Its just that some substitutes are better suited for different things. Besides running vehicles, you have home heating, generating electricity, etc. When we do (not if we do) move beyond oil, it will be a combination of alternatives taking its place, not one thing. The only reason most of the world is a petroleum based economy is because it is cheap and the infrastructure to locate, acquire, refine and distribute it is in place. And that infrastructure was built and perfected over decades. So, not is oil only a finite resource, it also funds economies of our enemies. The smart thing is to realize that it is finite, start developing alternatives and their infrastructure now, and phasing out of petroleum before it runs out.

[GMDino]

(10-03-2015, 09:13 PM)Beaker Wrote: There are plenty of other substitutes besides solar power. There are even substitutes from technologies not perfected yet (example cold fusion). Its just that some substitutes are better suited for different things. Besides running vehicles, you have home heating, generating electricity, etc. When we do (not if we do) move beyond oil, it will be a combination of alternatives taking its place, not one thing. The only reason most of the world is a petroleum based economy is because it is cheap and the infrastructure to locate, acquire, refine and distribute it is in place. And that infrastructure was built and perfected over decades. So, not is oil only a finite resource, it also funds economies of our enemies. The smart thing is to realize that it is finite, start developing alternatives and their infrastructure now, and phasing out of petroleum before it runs out.