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Why the Dominion Suit Matters (Smartmatic too!)
#21
(03-09-2023, 01:09 AM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I see. People have first hand knowledge to accuse someone of lying. The only truth you can depend on is if you heard or saw it yourself. FOX will win the case as a freedom of press or speech case. All news sources these days are opinions. The days of the six o'clock news just running down the facts for the day are over.

So I can make a show especially about you saying you are a liar, a thief and a terrible bloke on the 1st amendment umbrella ? 

Damn, I forgot 1st and 2nd amendment are for white conservatives only.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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#22
So the suit has been delayed a day--perhaps so the two parties can discuss out of court settlement.

There was a good discussion of options and consequences on Katy Tur today.

Fox has a tremendous incentive to settle, because if they go to court, their "stars" will likely be on the witness stand explaining
how they promoted a lie they did not believe
--Tucker, Sean, Laura and Maria--always while inciting their listeners to believe it was the MSM journalists that got up every morning to "lie to your faces."  That theater COULD hurt their brand more than a billion dollar settlement. (But liberals would be foolish to think that finding out Fox stars lie all the time will somehow jolt the MAGA viewers out of the bubble. They have been groomed to believe, falsely, that the MSM does what Fox ACTUALLY does every day as part of its business model. There will likely be a period of a month or two as the counter-narrative is stitched into place, relying heavily on "both sidesism" to reduce the cognitive dissonance.)  

Dominion also has a tremendous incentive NOT to settle. The Fox lies cost them their future as a company.

Fox's lawyers warn us the suit endangers press freedom and first Amendment Rights. Somehow. Who would China and Russia side with here? 

Dominion's lawyers will remind us that if Fox gets off, there is virtually no such thing as defamation. If there is, and it is illegal, then
this should be the case that establishes a limit on the harm of "free speech" for profit.  

Also, if Fox is acquitted or gets a silent settlement, it's likely the RW media will respond as Trump did after his party got him off for obstruction during Russiagate and then refused to impeach him for misuse of his office--i.e., they'll see no limits/risks to lying whatsoever, with an angry, uncritical audience of millions lapping up whatever they are served.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/business/media/fox-news-dominion-trial.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20230417&instance_id=90380&nl=the-morning&regi_id=115336211&segment_id=130628&te=1&user_id=98d040cfc463129084276e2affe091f0

Some experts . . .  believe the case’s significance could grow beyond its relevance to the current disinformation-plagued political climate. They see an opportunity for the Supreme Court to eventually take the case as a vehicle to revisit libel law and the “actual malice” standard. The justices have not done that since a 1989 case involving a losing candidate for municipal office in Ohio who successfully sued a newspaper after it published a false story about him a week before the election. The court said that a public figure cannot recover damages unless there was “clear and convincing proof” of actual malice.

The actual malice standard has been vital for individual journalists and media outlets who make mistakes — as long as they are honest mistakes. But some scholars like Mr. Logan — as well as two conservative Supreme Court justices, Neil M. Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas — have argued that “actual malice” should be reconsidered as too high a standard. Justice Thomas specifically cited as a reason “the proliferation of falsehoods.”...

Judge Davis has expressed considerable skepticism toward Fox in the courtroom. He issued a sanction against Fox last week when Dominion disclosed that the company had not revealed details about Mr. Murdoch’s involvement in Fox News’s affairs, ruling that Dominion had a right to conduct further depositions at Fox’s expense. In a letter to the judge on Friday, Fox said, “We understand the court’s concerns, apologize, and are committed to clear and full communication with the court moving forward.”

But the judge does not have the final say. Twelve men and women from Delaware will ultimately decide the case. And defamation suits so rarely prevail, it’s also reasonable to consider the possibility that Fox does win — and what a 2024 election looks like with an emboldened pro-Trump media.
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#23
Right before opening statements, the case was settled. It's a damn shame the world needed to hear what Fox has done.

 

 Fueled by the pursuit of greatness.
 




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#24
(04-18-2023, 05:03 PM)pally Wrote: Right before opening statements, the case was settled.  It's a damn shame the world needed to hear what Fox has done.

That's a bit disappointing, but anyone who would follow the trial in order to draw a conclusion about Fox News should be easily swayed by their settling for damn near a billion bucks.  
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#25
(04-18-2023, 05:03 PM)pally Wrote: Right before opening statements, the case was settled.  It's a damn shame the world needed to hear what Fox has done.


Even with that, they'll stay in their opinion because it would mean to recognize that they have been deceived and dumb enough to trust what everybody told them it was BS. 

It's way too much to ask. 

It will take a day or two to bring Soros, the deepstate or whatever new thing to prove them right ! 

God know why Fox News did agree to pay almost 1 billion and admin they lied but their viewers are going to take any BS Tucker will find. 

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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#26
Nearly $800MM, big woof. That one hurts.
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#27
(04-18-2023, 05:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Even with that, they'll stay in their opinion because it would mean to recognize that they have been deceived and dumb enough to trust what everybody told them it was BS. 

It's way too much to ask. 

It will take a day or two to bring Soros, the deepstate or whatever new thing to prove them right ! 

God know why Fox News did agree to pay almost 1 billion and admin they lied but their viewers are going to take any BS Tucker will find. 

I've learned there are two types of cons.

#1 - you get taken for a little and/or catch the conman in the lie, you learn your lesson and you walk away.

#2 - you get taken for a little and/or catch the conman in the lie, you convince yourself it's all worth it or it'll pay off in the end and you end up going all-in and getting taken for even more.


Fox News has admitted to lying.  They've been caught, and this is where people are going to double-down and go all-in on them.  That's a key aspect of any con or problematic relationship.  You see who they are and you accept it, and then you're in for good.  Nigerian scammers do this all the time where they intentionally slip up or have scam pitches that are obviously untrue and ridiculous because they really want the type of mark who accepts their story and what they say rather than believing their own eyes or the pleas of their loved ones.

Only when you can present someone with an off-ramp and they refuse to take it it have you truly gotten a hold of someone.


tl;dr - Fox is only settling because they're innocent
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#28
(04-18-2023, 05:03 PM)pally Wrote: Right before opening statements, the case was settled.  It's a damn shame the world needed to hear what Fox has done.

I agree. In the end this may be the best possible outcome for Fox. 

Fox did not admit to lying. They acknowledge "certain claims about Dominion to be false," not that they platformed those claims unchallenged, knowing they were false, following their "commitment to the highest journalistic standards." Steven Shackleford, a Dominion lawyer on Erin Barnett just now, says they didn't demand Fox admit the lie on air because they had "already proved it."  Framing it this practically insures most Fox viewers will never learn the truth directly. Shackleford says Dominion "trauma" was the reason they accepted the settlement.

I'm disappointed with some of the MSNBC commentators on this. A few realize this settlement may incentivize Fox to evaluate the costs of the lawsuit vs the benefit of keeping their audience--and so to change little in their "business model."  But many seem to think Fox has "learned its lesson."  NO I say. That misses how Fox actually works, subverting journalistic norms and incrementally constructing alternative narratives. 

On the other hand, this must be a nightmare for their liability insurers. Could that force some adjustment to the model? It is the largest libel settlement in history.

Now I am interested in whether anything actually changes inside Fox. Were I Murdoch, and committed to his values, I would fire a junior executive and perhaps an editor (people out of the public eye), but keep the stars who lied. Judge Pirro was on "the Five" this afternoon, going as strong as ever. 
The Fox audience, groomed to stay away from real journalism, will likely hear little of how Tucker described Trump as a danger, and how Laura and Sean never believed the BIG LIE for a second while giving air time to conspiracy theorists without challenge. Tucker and Sean have both done "in-depth" interviews with Trump in the last week. They're back on the elect Trump bandwagon, giving him a platform which enhances his lies. 

"Time to move forward" Fox now says:

https://www.npr.org/2023/04/18/1170339114/fox-news-settles-blockbuster-defamation-lawsuit-with-dominion-voting-systems

"We acknowledge the Court's rulings finding certain claims about Dominion to be false . . . . This settlement reflects FOX's continued commitment to the highest journalistic standards. We are hopeful that our decision to resolve this dispute with Dominion amicably, instead of the acrimony of a divisive trial, allows the country to move forward from these issues."
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#29
(04-18-2023, 05:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Even with that, they'll stay in their opinion because it would mean to recognize that they have been deceived and dumb enough to trust what everybody told them it was BS. 

It's way too much to ask. 

It will take a day or two to bring Soros, the deepstate or whatever new thing to prove them right ! 

God know why Fox News did agree to pay almost 1 billion and admin they lied but their viewers are going to take any BS Tucker will find. 

LOL I agree with bolded, except Fox wasn't "deceived." They knowingly disseminated the lies--for profit.

By the way, Soros was there from the beginning, when Sydney Powell claimed that he and Pelosi had an "interest" in Dominion,
as part of the original lie.

I also agree that Fox will weasel around this over the next month. People will pop up in this forum claiming Fox was no more
hypocritical than the MSM ("both sides do it!"), or forced into concession by Soros and Biden's "weaponized" DOJ.  

They still have to compete with Newsmax and OANN--can't do that by fact checking.
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#30
Now there is still the Smartmatic suit, which is demanding 2.7 billion.

Fox News' settlement with Dominion doesn't mean the risk of embarrassment is over, with Smartmatic saying it 'remains committed' to its own defamation case against the network
https://www.businessinsider.com/smartmatic-remains-committed-to-fox-news-defamation-case-2023-4
In February 2021, Smartmatic, which sells electronic voting technology, also sued Fox News and those who appeared on the network — including Trump attorneys Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell — for defamation, claiming the network had "damaged democracy worldwide" by airing false reports suggesting the company had "fixed and rigged the 2020 election."

Smartmatic was the subject of conspiracy theories, many hinging on its connection to Venezuela, with Powell claiming it had helped rig elections there. In fact, Smartmatic blew the whistle on fraud in Venezuela, revealing in 2017 that President Nicolas Maduro had "manipulated" the vote for a new, extra-constitutional assembly.

In a statement on Tuesday, an attorney for Smartmatic credited Dominion's litigation with shedding light on Fox News' internal deliberations — and promised more of the same.

"Dominion's litigation exposed some of the misconduct and damage caused by Fox's disinformation campaign," J. Erik Connolly, an attorney at Benesch, Friedlander, Coplan & Aronoff said in a statement. "Smartmatic will expose the rest."
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#31
(04-18-2023, 05:54 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Nearly $800MM, big woof. That one hurts.

And apparently investors are about to sue the Fox News brass for cutting into their bottom line.

It's weird that Fox News would settle and basically admit they peddle lies. If only their viewers were self aware enough to let that actually matter.
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#32
Looks like there'll be more Fox pushback on this suit, which includes claims against individuals--Bartiromo and Dobbs.

Fox News Won’t Be Getting Out of a $2.7 Billion Lawsuit Over Its Rigged Voting Machine Claims
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/fox-news-smartmatic-lawsuit

A billion defamation case against the network can proceed. There is “substantial basis” for the claim “that, at a minimum, Fox News turned a blind eye to a litany of outrageous claims about [Smartmatic], unprecedented in the history of American elections, so inherently improbable that it evinced a reckless disregard for the truth,” Judge David Cohen wrote in a 61-page ruling.

Smartmatic last year filed a suit against Fox News and Fox Business Network, naming current and former network stars Maria Bartiromo, Jeanine Pirro, and Lou Dobbs as defendants. The election technology company accused them of damaging its reputation and business with false claims broadcast in the aftermath of the 2020 election. The claims aired on Fox served to bolster Donald Trump’s democracy-defying attempt to explain away his loss to Joe Biden by blaming it on faulty or rigged voting machines. The suit—one of two massive defamation suits Rupert Murdoch’s empire is battling as a result of its conspiracy-addled election coverage—also targeted former Trump lawyers Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, both of whom peddled pro-Trump conspiracy theories about Smartmatic's voting machines on Fox programs.

Cohen on Tuesday rejected efforts by Fox Corp, Bartiromo, and Dobbs to dismiss Smartmatic’s claims against them. Pirro, however, prevailed. The judge dismissed all claims against her because the anchor, despite asserting on her program that Democrats “stole votes,” did not specifically blame Smartmatic’s software. The judge also dismissed defamation claims against Powell due to a lack of jurisdiction, and most of the claims against Giuliani. But some parts of Smartmatic’s case against the former New York City mayor were allowed to proceed, The New York Times noted.

In their motions to dismiss Smartmatic’s case, Fox and its current and former anchors have cited First Amendment protections and the newsworthiness of covering Smartmatic as part of Trump’s post-election efforts. Fox News again cited free speech in response to Tuesday’s ruling. “While we are gratified that Judge Cohen dismissed Smartmatic’s claims against Jeanine Pirro at this early stage, we still plan to appeal the ruling immediately,” the network said in a statement. “We will also continue to litigate these baseless claims by filing a counterclaim for fees and costs under New York’s anti-SLAPP statute to prevent the full-blown assault on the First Amendment which stands in stark contrast to the highest tradition of American journalism.”
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#33
(04-18-2023, 09:21 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: And apparently investors are about to sue the Fox News brass for cutting into their bottom line.

It's weird that Fox News would settle and basically admit they peddle lies. If only their viewers were self aware enough to let that actually matter.

Unless Fox announces this on their network, during their Stars' prime time, there is no reason to believe their viewers will know Fox lied. 

Tucker and Sean are still drawing them in, and giving Trump a platform to "discuss policy" ( LMAO ) in their recent interviews. 

Interesting point about the investors. They might finally impose some accountability. Especially with the Smartmatic suit coming next.

May depend on how they balance the suit losses against the need to retain their audience. They can't do that by becoming more
accountable to the factual record.
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#34
(04-18-2023, 09:21 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: And apparently investors are about to sue the Fox News brass for cutting into their bottom line.

It's weird that Fox News would settle and basically admit they peddle lies. If only their viewers were self aware enough to let that actually matter.

They did it because the evidence was so astounding and overwhelming and the fact that all their big revenue makers were going to have to go on the stand and defend their lies and contradictions from their own emails and texts, would have been all far more damaging.

Bottom line - you can't call yourself NEWS and lie without consequence.
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#35
hmm. So that's what it cost to walk away from trying to start a civil war. Pretty cheap imo.

Let em re load and keep trying. Its not like they are the lying lamestream media or anything.  Whatever
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#36
FOX is the only news channel reporting many things regarding the Biden administration. I guess people will say these are lies too even though nobody contests them. I notice CNN and MSNBC often don't mention anything.
Get ready for next year!  Tiger
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#37
(04-18-2023, 08:07 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL I agree with bolded, except Fox wasn't "deceived." They knowingly disseminated the lies--for profit.

By the way, Soros was there from the beginning, when Sydney Powell claimed that he and Pelosi had an "interest" in Dominion,
as part of the original lie.

I also agree that Fox will weasel around this over the next month. People will pop up in this forum claiming Fox was no more
hypocritical than the MSM ("both sides do it!"), or forced into concession by Soros and Biden's "weaponized" DOJ.  

They still have to compete with Newsmax and OANN--can't do that by fact checking.

They = viewers.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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#38
(04-19-2023, 06:31 AM)guyofthetiger Wrote: FOX is the only news channel reporting many things regarding the Biden administration. I guess people will say these are lies too even though nobody contests them. I notice CNN and MSNBC often don't mention anything.

This is the 2nd lawsuit they’ve lost because of lying (previously they lost the case brought by Seth Rich’s parents)

So yeah, while some things may be truthful, anything that comes out of their mouths should be assumed to be a lie until proven otherwise. Just like their favorite President. Chronic liars don’t get the benefit of doubt.

It is not CNN or MSNBC’s jobs to fact check Fox
 

 Fueled by the pursuit of greatness.
 




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#39
(04-19-2023, 08:29 AM)pally Wrote: It is not CNN or MSNBC’s jobs to fact check Fox

Just to expand a little further on this, it also isn't something the administration is going to want to do. When FOX lies, they are not just trying to spread the disinformation. They are also trying to goad other media and those they are lying about into responding. When there is a response to their lies it extends the life of the lies and it gives them legitimacy. When they lie and there is no response it is intentional and there really isn't anything that can be read into it other than that they are ignoring it.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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#40
And the lying continues...

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