Why we need Trump and Putin to get along

[StLucieBengal]

http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-1156296.html

Democrats and their fake news friends have tried to strain relationships with Russia since they lost. The reality is that only a fool wouldn't want us to get along with Russia.

Quote:Why We Need Trump and Putin To Get Along

On the eve of his first meeting with Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump blasted the Russian president's "destabilizing behavior." Yet history shows that global stability improves when Moscow and Washington get along. And the recipe for doing so was on full display in Paris recently.

The G-20's Most Important Meeting

A Commentary by Dietmar Pieper


AFP

Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are meeting on Friday.

Thursday, 7/6/2017 05:39 PM

On the campaign trail, Donald Trump had nothing but positive things to say about the Russian president. He called Vladimir Putin a "strong leader" and promised: "We're going to have a great relationship with Putin and Russia."

That wasn't all that long ago, but the situation has changed dramatically since then. Little has done more to damage Trump's White House than his team's real or imagined connections with Russia, which were placed under investigation by a special counsel not long ago. And now, just one day before the two presidents' highly anticipated first meeting, Trump has gone on the offensive. Speaking during his visit to Poland on Thursday, Trump accused Russia of "destabilizing behavior" -- an allegation that the Kremlin immediately rejected.

Indeed, it would be a tremendous stretch to speak of a "great relationship" between the U.S. and Russia at the moment. And that is bad news for the rest of the world. Nor is it a particularly good omen for their Friday face-to-face on the sidelines of the G-20 (keep up with current developments with our rolling blog here).

It would certainly be a clever bit of diplomacy were Trump to engage in a modicum of flattery with his Russian counterpart. Moscow still hasn't forgiven or forgotten Barack Obama's derogatory remark about Russia being a "regional power." The country's age-old yearning for international respect hasn't diminished.

Furthermore, history shows that a respectful relationship between the leaders in Moscow and Washington tends to coincide with greater international stability.

Paving the Way for Peace

The first meeting between a U.S. president and a Kremlin leader took place in 1943 during World War II. The trio of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Soviet leader Josef Stalin and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill met in Tehran to coordinate the fight against Nazi Germany. The two democratic politicians had feared that dealing with the Soviet dictator would be extremely difficult, but in Tehran, Stalin was as friendly as he could be and spoke openly and extensively about the Soviet Union's strategy. The West's cooperation with Stalin, despite his penchant for murdering millions of his countrymen, proved beneficial when it came to preventing the Nazis from winning the war.

The relationship didn't last. But in the ensuing Cold War, the fact that U.S. President John F. Kennedy and Soviet General Secretary Nikita Khrushchev had spoken to each other at length in Vienna the year before the Cuban Missile Crisis likely played a role in averting disaster in 1962. And the first nuclear arms control deal between the Americans and the Soviets came about in the 1970s following a meeting between Richard Nixon and Leonid Brezhnev.

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The relationship between Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev was even better. In 1986, the two met for tough negotiations in the Icelandic capital of Reykjavik. Although those initial talks ended without result, they paved the way for the crucial Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty. Signed in 1987, the INF deal led to the destruction of land-based mid-range nuclear-armed missiles of the kind that would have destroyed Central Europe in the event of war.

Following the fall of the Soviet Union, Bill Clinton deployed his charm in discussions with Boris Yeltsin and helped support the democratization process in Russia, including the introduction of internationally accepted economic regulations. Indeed, at the behest of Clinton and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Russia was even invited in 1997 to join the group of the world's largest economies, expanding the G-7 to the G-8. Moscow, it seemed at the time, was on the way to joining the West.

Respect and Clarity

That seems like ancient history today, now that relations between the West and Moscow, after several years of slow disintegration, have plunged over the edge due to a combination of competing geopolitical interests, Russian nostalgia, Western arrogance and hurt pride. And the result, most will agree, is a world that is more unstable than it has been in a long time.

As such, there are good reasons to treat the Russian president with respect and consideration. That doesn't mean agreeing with everything he says or ignoring the problems that exist. The example that should be followed is that of Reagan and Gorbachev.

Or that of new French President Emmanuel Macron. In late May, Macron invited Vladimir Putin to Paris and received him with great pomp in Versailles. But Macron didn't just seek to charm his guest. He also spoke publicly and plainly about Russian missteps and overreach. It is a recipe that the U.S. president would be wise to emulate. And it is quite simple: respect and clear language.

[*michaelsean*]

Get along. Fine, but Putin is a weasel and and I would never trust him.

[GMDino]

(07-07-2017, 12:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Get along.  Fine, but Putin is a weasel and and I would never trust him.

Yep.  And Trump thinks he is smarter than he is.  He'll trust anyone who praises him and makes a "good deal" for him.

[Belsnickel]

(07-07-2017, 12:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Get along. Fine, but Putin is a weasel and and I would never trust him.

That's my opinion as well. Also, we should not remove the sanctions in place or return the compounds. That would be a very weak move on our part.

[Dill]

(07-07-2017, 11:09 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-1156296.html

Democrats and their fake news friends have tried to strain relationships with Russia since they lost.   The reality is that only a fool wouldn't want us to get along with Russia.   

Lucie you are addressing two different groups of people here.

1. Trumpsters who don't believe Russia meddled in the US elections and there is a massive conspiracy between the MSM and Obama deep state operatives in our intel services who are pushing a false story to delegitimize Trump.  And

2. The rest of the world, who believe that Putin directed interference in the US election to favor Trump, while Russian operatives had numerous contacts with the Trump campaign.

For group 2, Russia strained relations with the US by invading the Ukraine, supporting Assad in Syria, and then disrupting our presidential elections. Democrats and the MSM did not force Putin to do this, and so they are not the cause of the strain. This group now fears the inexperienced Trump will bend over now and give Putin what he wants--removal of sanctions imposed by Obama and Congress and the global-level respect Obama denied Russia as a bad international actor. This group thinks the US needs to stand up to Russia, for its own security and Europe's. Trump's mysterious inability to criticize Putin's actions or agree with his own intel services leaves him a poor match for a former KGB agent who has been acting on the world stage for 17 years.

Unless you are only addressing other Trumpsters, I am guessing you want to convince people in group 2 that group 1's narrative is the correct one.

What would "getting along with Russia" look like in your view? Are you asking the rest of us to forget what our intel services and best news  sources tell us about the attack on our election? How would you convince us either that Russia did not attack us or that, even if they did, we should not make a big deal out of the security threat? What should we expect from an Alpha leader?

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2017, 12:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Get along. Fine, but Putin is a weasel and and I would never trust him.

(07-07-2017, 12:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That's my opinion as well. Also, we should not remove the sanctions in place or return the compounds. That would be a very weak move on our part.

Why does Russia have a different set of standards when it comes to diplomacy than any other country? If we can align with the backwards middle eastern countries then we can align with Russia. Working with them has worked in the past. We also have an growing German problem that needs addressed.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2017, 01:03 PM)Dill Wrote: Lucie you are addressing two different groups of people here.

1. Trumpsters who don't believe Russia meddled in the US elections and there is a massive conspiracy between the MSM and Obama deep state operatives in our intel services who are pushing a false story to delegitimize Trump.  And

2. The rest of the world, who believe that Putin directed interference in the US election to favor Trump, while Russian operatives had numerous contacts with the Trump campaign.

For group 2, Russia strained relations with the US by invading the Ukraine, supporting Assad in Syria, and then disrupting our presidential elections. Democrats and the MSM did not force Putin to do this, and so they are not the cause of the strain. This group now fears the inexperienced Trump will bend over now and give Putin what he wants--removal of sanctions imposed by Obama and Congress and the global-level respect Obama denied Russia as a bad international actor. This group thinks the US needs to stand up to Russia, for its own security and Europe's. Trump's mysterious inability to criticize Putin's actions or agree with his own intel services leaves him a poor match for a former KGB agent who has been acting on the world stage for 17 years.

Unless you are only addressing other Trumpsters, I am guessing you want to convince people in group 2 that group 1's narrative is the correct one.

What would "getting along with Russia" look like in your view? Are you asking the rest of us to forget what our intel services and best news  sources tell us about the attack on our election? How would you convince us either that Russia did not attack us or that, even if they did, we should not make a big deal out of the security threat? What should we expect from an Alpha leader?

Please keep responses brief and to the point. I do not need a multi paragraph response where you spend 80% complaining about trump.

I want to work with Russia where we can work together. If we can be friendly and work with the Muslims we can certainly work with Russia.

As far as then "hacking" .... it's obvious that's just part of espionage. I am quite certain we meddle in others elections. Obama meddled in Israel and tapped the phones of Merkel.

[Vas Deferens]

^^^. HA HA HA HA


direct and to the point. Can't make this shit up folks.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-07-2017, 12:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Get along.  Fine, but Putin is a weasel and and I would never trust him.

Putin is not an enigma, he's a typical Russian strongman.  The Russians historically want/need/love that type of leader.  Much like Trump, he is thus easily manipulated by those who understand that mentality and play to it.  A shame such subtleties are lost on the vast majority of politicians, and the general public as well.  I still trust Putin far more than I trust Xi and the Chinese Communist Party.  China will only be friendly right up to the point that they feel they're in a position where they no longer have to.  I've said it before, but peeling Russia away from China's orbit should be our number one foreign policy priority.  It is an achievable goal, they are not natural allies, the opposite being more true, and are only united in a disdain for the US.

(07-07-2017, 12:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That's my opinion as well. Also, we should not remove the sanctions in place or return the compounds. That would be a very weak move on our part.

Well, they shouldn't without getting something substantial in return.  I would be all for a quid pro quo agreement with Russia.  We need to start somewhere.

[Dill]

(07-07-2017, 02:36 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Please keep responses brief and to the point.   I do not need a multi paragraph response where you spend 80% complaining about trump.

I want to work with Russia where we can work together.   If we can be friendly and work with the Muslims we can certainly work with Russia.    

As far as then "hacking" .... it's obvious that's just part of espionage.   I am quite certain we meddle in others elections.    Obama meddled in Israel and tapped the phones of Merkel.

I don't like thinking and writing in soundbites. I urge you to give that up too.
So no, I'll continue to pose and answer questions with what I deem the requisite order and support.

"The Muslims" are not a country. And no Muslim country has cyber-attacked us. THAT is why we can work with "the Muslims."

Obama stood up to Putin. After calling Obama weak, you are ready for Trump to bend over for Putin because hacking is "just part of espionage" and "Obama meddled in Israel."   

Again, the problem of false equivalencies rears its ugly head--our CIA wiretapped Merkel, so we shrug when the Russians orchestrate a massive, multi-faceted attack on our election.  Just part of espionage.

[Belsnickel]

(07-07-2017, 02:25 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Why does Russia have a different set of standards when it comes to diplomacy than any other country? If we can align with the backwards middle eastern countries then we can align with Russia. Working with them has worked in the past. We also have an growing German problem that needs addressed.

I am not holding Russia to anything different than I would hold any other country. If you get caught involved in espionage activities, there are repercussions. Our current POTUS has shown signs of backing out of the repercussions the previous POTUS made happen, that is a sign of weakness. Everyone spies on everyone else, even friendly nations. But when you get caught things have to happen or you are made to look the fool.

[GMDino]

Don't worry folks!

Trump and Putin had a two hour AND SIXTEEN MINUTE meeting!

They even sent the FLOTUS in to break it up...and they talked for another hour!

They even agreed to not do the thing anymore that Trump said Russia probably didn't do! 

And everyone is saying it went really great.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/07/07/trump-putin-g-20/458210001/

Quote: President Trump repeatedly pushed his Russian counterpart on Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, U.S. and Russian officials said Friday, with the two leaders agreeing not to meddle in each other's elections in the future.


The accord, however tentative, was stunning given the reluctance of both Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin to acknowledge Russia's use of hacking and propaganda to influence the U.S. election last year.



But Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said the issue was "a substantial hindrance in the ability to move the U.S.-Russian relationship forward." The two sides are setting up lower-level talks to work out details of the non-interference agreement.


One issue: How the two sides would monitor compliance. "How do we create a framework in which wee have some ability to judge what is happening in the cyber world and who we can hold accountable," Tillerson said.


The agreement comes despite specific denials from Putin that Russia engaged in the interference campaign, which U.S. intelligence agencies say was an effort to get Trump elected president. And as recently as Thursday in Warsaw, Trump said "nobody really knows" the extent of Russia's involvement.



There remained differences in how each side portrayed the issue Friday. Tillerson said Putin continue to deny Russian involvement and — in a typically Russian refutation — demanded evidence.



His Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, said Trump had "accepted" Putin's denials and agreed to move on.


But to Tillerson, it was more of an effort to avoid getting stuck in past disagreements. "I think the president is rightly focused on how can we move forward on what may be an intractable disagreement," he said.


The meeting — the first face-to-face encounter between the two presidents as world leaders gathered in Hamburg for the G-20 summit Friday — also cemented a Syrian cease-fire agreement and discussed crises in North Korea and Ukraine.


Except for two translators, Tillerson and Lavrov were the only other people in the room for the meeting, which was supposed to last 30 minutes but instead clocked in at two hours and 16 minutes.

"There was just such a level of engagement and exchange, and neither one of them wanted to stop," Tillerson said.



Such was the chemistry between Trump and Putin that U.S. officials tried to wrap it up by sending first lady Melania Trump into the room to break it up.



"That didn't work, either," Tillerson said. The meeting went on another hour after that.

Indeed, the highly anticipated face-to-face meeting provided the world with its first visual clues about how the personalities of two powerful presidents would shape the relationship between the United States and Russia.


In a meeting room at the G-20 summit of world leaders, the two men appeared comfortable but formal, sitting forward in low-backed armchairs. They leaned in closer to have a private word, and then farther apart to size each other up. 


"We look forward to a lot of very positive happening for Russia and for the United States and for everyone concerned," Trump said at the beginning of a meeting that was supposed to last half an hour.


Putin said the two had spoken over the phone several times, "but phone conversations are never enough definitely." To address important international issues, "that will really need personal meetings," he said.


Their pre-meeting small talk belied the complicated web of issues facing their relationship: Conflicting objectives in Ukraine, Syria and Iran, and common concerns about terrorism in the Middle East and nuclear weapons on the Korean peninsula.


And, of course, there's the elephant in the room that neither leader seems eager to talk about: Allegations that Putin personally ordered a campaign of hacking and propaganda during the 2016 presidential election in an effort to get Trump elected President. 

And none of that is propaganda!  None! 

[Bengalzona]

Outside of its nuclear weapons stockpile, Russia IS a regional power. And that was done by design by, of all people, Putin. The Russian people don't like to believe that and propaganda tells them otherwise. But it is true.

Actually, it has been one of the best decisions they have made. They slashed their military to only a fraction of their Soviet Cold War Era forces (especially their navy) and concentrated on developing quality to match Western standards over quantity. Rather than sponsoring governments and movements overseas (a.k.a. proxies), they have spent most of the past 20 years working internally on security and their economy.

They finally seem to have come to a realization that, for the first time in almost a millennia, no country is trying to grab their land. Corporations, however, are a different matter and a different type of threat. This is why Russia is following the Chinese model of closer cooperation (and sometimes control) by the state and Russian businesses.

That said, screwing around with our elections is unacceptable. It is okay for us to screw around with theirs, however. If you can't accept that dichotomy, then you really aren't a patriot.

[ballsofsteel]

(07-07-2017, 11:09 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-1156296.html

Democrats and their fake news friends have tried to strain relationships with Russia since they lost.   The reality is that only a fool wouldn't want us to get along with Russia.    

They already get along. Putin said he was a genius. You don't arrange silver showers for just anyone.

[jmccracky]

(07-07-2017, 04:39 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: That said, screwing around with our elections is unacceptable. It is okay for us to screw around with theirs, however. If you can't accept that dichotomy, then you really aren't a patriot.

Exactly! Kind of like how it's cool if I screw my friends moms, but they sure as hell better not screw mine! p

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2017, 04:08 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't like thinking and writing in soundbites. I urge you to give that up too.
So no, I'll continue to pose and answer questions with what I deem the requisite order and support.

"The Muslims" are not a country. And no Muslim country has cyber-attacked us. THAT is why we can work with "the Muslims."

Obama stood up to Putin. After calling Obama weak, you are ready for Trump to bend over for Putin because hacking is "just part of espionage" and "Obama meddled in Israel."   

Again, the problem of false equivalencies rears its ugly head--our CIA wiretapped Merkel, so we shrug when the Russians orchestrate a massive, multi-faceted attack on our election.  Just part of espionage.

At least this time you spared us all the book and stopped using the bold feature like a 2 dollar ***** lol

China has attacked us. Yet we work with them. The whole Middle East is packed full of bad actors with the exceptions being Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. Outside of those not much use for the rest of them.

Working with Russia is not nearly as bad as working with China, Iran, Saudi Arabia.

Quite frankly it's in our best interest to work closely with Russia. The enemies are China and the soon to be coming German problem. A US-Russia coalition could be quite useful.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2017, 04:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Putin is not an enigma, he's a typical Russian strongman.  The Russians historically want/need/love that type of leader.  Much like Trump, he is thus easily manipulated by those who understand that mentality and play to it.  A shame such subtleties are lost on the vast majority of politicians, and the general public as well.  I still trust Putin far more than I trust Xi and the Chinese Communist Party.  China will only be friendly right up to the point that they feel they're in a position where they no longer have to.  I've said it before, but peeling Russia away from China's orbit should be our number one foreign policy priority.  It is an achievable goal, they are not natural allies, the opposite being more true, and are only united in a disdain for the US.


Well, they shouldn't without getting something substantial in return.  I would be all for a quid pro quo agreement with Russia.  We need to start somewhere.

Well said. I agree 100%

[Vas Deferens]

(07-07-2017, 04:08 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't like thinking and writing in soundbites. I urge you to give that up too.
So no, I'll continue to pose and answer questions with what I deem the requisite order and support.

Please tone down the words very very much.

[Dill]

(07-07-2017, 04:39 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Outside of its nuclear weapons stockpile, Russia IS a regional power. And that was done by design by, of all people, Putin. The Russian people don't like to believe that and propaganda tells them otherwise. But it is true.

Actually, it has been one of the best decisions they have made. They slashed their military to only a fraction of their Soviet Cold War Era forces (especially their navy) and concentrated on developing quality to match Western standards over quantity. Rather than sponsoring governments and movements overseas (a.k.a. proxies), they have spent most of the past 20 years working internally on security and their economy.

They finally seem to have come to a realization that, for the first time in almost a millennia, no country is trying to grab their land. Corporations, however, are a different matter and a different type of threat. This is why Russia is following the Chinese model of closer cooperation (and sometimes control) by the state and Russian businesses.    

That said, screwing around with our elections is unacceptable. It is okay for us to screw around with theirs, however. If you can't accept that dichotomy, then you really aren't a patriot.

I quite agree, although there are degrees of this.  If the Russians contributed money to a candidate or critiqued the policy of a candidate, that is hardly beyond the pale. But flooding our media sphere with fake news while hacking and publishing one side's emails and aggressively trying to affect voter registration roles in numerous states--that rises to the level of a military assault crippling infrastructure like railroads or the power grid.

I add that the election of Trump itself and its effect on the Executive might be analogized to introducing a destructive virus in to a computer network--though clearly we can't blame that all on the Russians.  For the Russians, Trump is the gift that keeps on giving.

[hollodero]

(07-07-2017, 05:22 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Quite frankly it's in our best interest to work closely with Russia.   The enemies are China and the soon to be coming German problem.   A US-Russia coalition could be quite useful.

It's too bad you can't respond, I really am urging to learn more about that German problem and how Putin is a great ally against that threat. That stuff's amazing!