Why we should be skeptical of Germany and their role going forward

[*michaelsean*]

(07-11-2017, 09:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I remember when Republicans didn't trust Russia. Did Malloch ever put out an updated version of his memoirs that corrected all the things he lied about doing?

I ain't trusting them commies.  Ain't no matter what they call theyselves now.  Better dead than red.

[hollodero]

(07-11-2017, 09:51 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Why are they moving forward with an EU army when they have NATO and their own individual military for each memeber?    

The reason they want the EU army is this gives Germany control over these troops.   Since they have many limitations in place from WW2.

OK.

First, it doesn't give Germany control. You clearly have little idea how the EU works. 
Second, what about NATO? You did not address my point there. Trump wants Germany to spend more on defense, the US right slams them for not taking care of their own defense and claim they are Europe's sugar daddy and that they are sick of that. But as soon as Germany and the EU seem to move in the direction of taking care about that, you cry Fourth Reich. Still completely irrational.
Third, 20+ individual armys are not very effective. I and others would very much like Europe to be able to take care of certain things, like I would have been in the Yugoslavia crisis, still a huge eyesore on Europe's history. You warn about Europe's militaristic independence. Yet you also cry foul if we are dependent on the US. Damned if we build an army, damned if we don't. 

Just tell me one thing - how comes the US reactionaries like you are cosy with anyone but your European allies. Do you want us to be allies any more? And if you don't, how could you possibly dare telling us what we can and cannot do militarily and defense-wise? And if you do, what about this awkward anti-European stances?
Because one thing is quite clear. We are not such weaklings as you might believe. Europe in general very much likes to keep the alliance in place, but if the words and notions from the US remain as they are now, at some point your European partners will show the US the finger. And honestly, rightfully so.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 10:08 AM)hollodero Wrote: OK.

First, it doesn't give Germany control. You clearly have little idea how the EU works. 
Second, what about NATO? You did not address my point there. Trump wants Germany to spend more on defense, the US right slams them for not taking care of their own defense and claim they are Europe's sugar daddy and that they are sick of that. But as soon as Germany and the EU seem to move in the direction of taking care about that, you cry Fourth Reich. Still completely irrational.
Third, 20+ individual armys are not very effective. I and others would very much like Europe to be able to take care of certain things, like I would have been in the Yugoslavia crisis, still a huge eyesore on Europe's history. You warn about Europe's militaristic independence. Yet you also cry foul if we are dependent on the US. Damned if we build an army, damned if we don't. 

Just tell me one thing - how comes the US reactionaries like you are cosy with anyone but your European allies. Do you want us to be allies any more? And if you don't, how could you possibly dare telling us what we can and cannot do militarily and defense-wise? And if you do, what about this awkward anti-European stances?
Because one thing is quite clear. We are not such weaklings as you might believe. Europe in general very much likes to keep the alliance in place, but if the words and notions from the US remain as they are now, at some point your European partners will show the US the finger. And honestly, rightfully so.

1. Nothing moves forward in the EU without the German blessing. This has been well documented.

2. Trump suppprts article 5.

3. Individual countries should control their armies. They should be answering to their country not the Germans in the EU.

4. I am very cozy with European nations. I just feel that they should control their own borders, make their own laws, and control their own armies.

Germany has taken the EU and made a modern day Soviet Union.

[hollodero]

(07-11-2017, 10:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 1. Nothing moves forward in the EU without the German blessing.   This has been well documented.    

Nothing moves forward if only Germany wants it to move forward either. GErmany does not rule the EU, no matter what someone in the US reading right-wing outlets believes.

(07-11-2017, 10:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 2. Trump suppprts article 5.  

And Trump slams Germany for spending too little on defense. He even handed Merkel a bill with interest because of their alleged underspending.
So what are we supposed to do, wait for Trump to withdraw his support because Merkel or Macron or whoever was snarky to him? No way. The way you see it points to Europe and its faith being dependent on the US leader's mood, like a colony. Sorry if we at some point don't want to be committed to the US any longer, dependent on their foreign policy. Screw that.

(07-11-2017, 10:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 3. Individual countries should control their armies.  They should be answering to their country not the Germans  in the EU.

They don't respond to the Germans. You keep having no idea how the EU works.
Btw. how France or Spain or whoever handles their military and defense really is none of your concern. We do not need US permission to move forward with our defense plans in our confederation of states.

(07-11-2017, 10:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 4. I am very cozy with European nations.   I just feel that they should control their own borders, make their own laws, and control their own armies.

We do control our own borders, albeit too individually right now. Italy and Greece could do it far more effectively if there were some European forces helping out on that.
That a small continent with many nations in complete independence from each other is not a sustainable path for the future seems obvious. Maybe not to you. But what would you say if Europeans would demand the United States to split up and take care of their own military individually now.

(07-11-2017, 10:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Germany has taken the EU and made a modern day Soviet Union.

That is absurd. Plainly absurd. On all levels.

[Belsnickel]

Brücken statt Mauern! Tschu Tschu Tschu! Der Schulzug hat keine Bremsen!

Seriously, though, this is an outsider's perspective of EU and German politics in particular. It comes from a place of trying to look at it through the lens of American culture, which it is hard to understand what is going on in Europe when looking at it like that. This is one of the things that makes looking at global politics so difficult, because when you look at it through the lens of your own country it is not going to be the same. What is seen as extremely progressive in one place can be moderate or even conservative in another. I'm sure he is well versed in the global economy, but when trying to look at the politics internal to a country and the EU he is lacking based on this article.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-11-2017, 10:37 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Brücken statt Mauern! Tschu Tschu Tschu! Der Schulzug hat keine Bremsen!

Seriously, though, this is an outsider's perspective of EU and German politics in particular. It comes from a place of trying to look at it through the lens of American culture, which it is hard to understand what is going on in Europe when looking at it like that. This is one of the things that makes looking at global politics so difficult, because when you look at it through the lens of your own country it is not going to be the same. What is seen as extremely progressive in one place can be moderate or even conservative in another. I'm sure he is well versed in the global economy, but when trying to look at the politics internal to a country and the EU he is lacking based on this article.

Well hell we get plenty of outsider's opinions on us, so I think it's only fair.

[Arturo Bandini]

(07-11-2017, 12:47 AM)Vlad Wrote: Ferguson Germany.

 


Great memories...nothing says capitalism like taking a selfie a $700 Iphone.

This was from the G20 in Hamburg. There were the same riots in Genova or anywhere the G20 is organized.

[Arturo Bandini]

(07-11-2017, 09:38 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Germany is already moving forward trying to form an EU army.  The fact you are a European just means you are so deep into this fourth Reich that you miss the obvious.    

Why does Merkel want an EU army?

The whole EU is massive issue for the world and needs to be addressed.

...

Because UK has left the EU and it was a big part of the european army ( which is basically UK and France ).

Your views on Germany are so cliché that it is almost funny.

Further more Trump showed us we are not allies anymore.  

[Belsnickel]

(07-11-2017, 10:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Well hell we get plenty of outsider's opinions on us, so I think it's only fair.

I don't disagree, but I'm just saying that those outsider perspectives of internal politics aren't true. We should always take a German, Russian, Ugandan, Australian, or whomever's evaluation of US politics with a large grain of salt, and the same can be said for any American's evaluation of politics internal to another country or a coalition like the EU. When you are not a part of that group it is very difficult to understand it unless you are an expert in that very specific thing. And even then it can be difficult. I appreciate McFaul's commentary on Russian politics, but I am going to trust him much more on their interactions with foreign governments than I will on internal Russian politics.

[hollodero]

(07-11-2017, 10:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Well hell we get plenty of outsider's opinions on us, so I think it's only fair.

It is.

But sure enough, if someone paints a picture about a Fourth Reich and equates the EU with the Soviet union, it's also fair to point out that this particular outsider's opinion isn't very well founded.

Out of keen interest, do you also think you need to be closer with Putin to fight the German threat?

[BmorePat87]

(07-11-2017, 09:40 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I trust Russia a lot more than I trust most of the Arab nations.

I would assume you do, considering you "don't want anyone from the Middle East or Africa here" because if "We start letting savages in here then we lose our sensibilities and start to accept their savage ways".

[*michaelsean*]

(07-11-2017, 10:59 AM)hollodero Wrote: It is.

But sure enough, if someone paints a picture about a Fourth Reich and equates the EU with the Soviet union, it's also fair to point out that this particular outsider's opinion isn't very well founded.

Out of keen interest, do you also think you need to be closer with Putin to fight the German threat?

Me?  I laughed when W melted in his big blue eyes years ago, and nothing has changed.  I have an inherent, some would say prejudicial, distrust of anything Russian, and especially anything that came out of the Soviet KGB.  

I don't understand the EU or how it works, but I do understand they aren't pissed because they don't rule the world.   Sure some EU countries may try to screw us or another in some way to their benefit, maybe even Germany, but that's normal for countries.  And you retaliate in kind and then people work things out.  

That's why I like this site. I'm not going to go all Bels on a European country, but someone will post something like this column, and then other people will point out where they believe it's wrong. I can read it all, and have a better understanding.

[Millhouse]

[hollodero]

(07-11-2017, 11:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Me?

Yes, you! This board is my lens on America. If a reactionary paints Russia as an ally against the German threat, I'm not alarmed. If conservative like you (if I can paint you that way, I mean it in a positive way) would join this sentiment I would be uneasy. Your opinion as a reasonable ***** politicus is quite important to me.

(07-11-2017, 11:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote:  I laughed when W melted in his big blue eyes years ago, and nothing has changed.  I have an inherent, some would say prejudicial, distrust of anything Russian, and especially anything that came out of the Soviet KGB.  

I don't understand the EU or how it works, but I do understand they aren't pissed because they don't rule the world.   Sure some EU countries may try to screw us or another in some way to their benefit, maybe even Germany, but that's normal for countries.  And you retaliate in kind and then people work things out.  

That makes perfect sense.

I still can't quite wrap my head around someone claiming the US needs alliance from an autocrat, who doesn't believe in Western values, whose opponents all have mysterious accidents, who occupies other countries and backs Assad and tries to wreak havoc on western countries... to fight Germany, a country that shares US values like only few others. There is some crazy stuff coming out from the reactionary wing of the conservative movement.

[Dill]

(07-11-2017, 02:05 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Please do some homework on the man.   You really have zero idea about the guy.

If you want to discuss his credentials then make a new thread.

You just got some "homework" on the man. That's what the links I gave you are about. And if I know he lies about his credentials then I do have an "idea" about the guy.

And his credentials concern his credibility, which is exactly what is at stake in this thread, because the article itself was unprofessional on two levels--substance and execution.  It is factually incorrect, slanted crazily in one direction, and disorganized the way bad student papers are disorganized.

This man is no "diplomat." He has no reputation as such. No professional political scientist would write a piece like the one you posted. As I said, he is simply adding ominous adjectives to ordinary facts about Germany, like the fact they have policy restricting nuclear power.

And I repeat--Germany has been a solid ally, spending blood and treasure in Afghanistan on our behalf. The German people, along with Japan, are the most anti war in the world. And it is a democracy.

Russia opposes the US on a number of international fronts. It is no longer a real democracy but a mafia state. It attacked our election process and wants to weaken NATO. In fact, Putin's foreign policy goals are those put forth in Malloch's essay--weaken the US and weaken NATO and the economically powerful democracy, Germany, the biggest European block to Russian expansion. Russia is not our friend just because they are not Muslim.

Your defense of Malloch is that somehow democratic Germany, the staunchest of allies, is set to become the 4th Reich while our biggest geopolitical foe is ready to help us cage Germany before it breaks out. 

PS What is the status of gay marriage in Russia?

[Bengalzona]

(07-11-2017, 10:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 3. Individual countries should control their armies.  They should be answering to their country not the Germans  in the EU.  

4. I am very cozy with European nations.   I just feel that they should control their own borders, make their own laws, and control their own armies.  

Germany has taken the EU and made a modern day Soviet Union.

Putin thanks you for your support. 

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 10:43 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: ...

Because UK has left the EU and it was a big part of the european army ( which is basically UK and France ).

Your views on Germany are so cliché that it is almost funny.

Further more Trump showed us we are not allies anymore.  

The U.K. Was not in favor of the European army. A matter of fact they hid their plans for the EU army while the Brexit vote was taking place. They denied the EU army pre Brexit and post Brexit Guy Verhofstadt calls for the eu army in parliament.

My views on Germany? This is nothing but me connecting the dots the same way I connected them when I called out:

1. the Russians funding political parties around Europe .
2. Brexit
3. Rise of the Front National
4. Rise of 5 star
5. Anti EU/migrant movements in the Netherlands, Austria, etc.

I have been correct or close to correct on so many things since this board has been active. I have a significant track record of being correct in putting these things together.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 12:26 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Putin thanks you for your support. 

So you think there is a need for a European Union army? In place of individual nations?

[GMDino]

(07-11-2017, 01:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The U.K. Was not in favor of the European army.   A matter of fact they hid their plans for the EU army while the Brexit vote was taking place.   They denied the EU army pre Brexit and post Brexit Guy Verhofstadt calls for the eu army in parliament.  

My views on Germany?   This is nothing but me connecting the dots the same way I connected them when I called out:

1. the Russians funding political parties around Europe .
2. Brexit
3. Rise of the Front National
4. Rise of 5 star
5. Anti EU/migrant movements in the Netherlands, Austria, etc.  

I have been correct or close to correct on so many things since this board has been active.   I have a significant track record of being correct in putting these things together.

Are their things you have been wrong or close to wrong about?  I'm looking for a percentage!  LOL!

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 11:35 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yes, you! This board is my lens on America. If a reactionary paints Russia as an ally against the German threat, I'm not alarmed. If conservative like you (if I can paint you that way, I mean it in a positive way) would join this sentiment I would be uneasy. Your opinion as a reasonable ***** politicus is quite important to me.


That makes perfect sense.

I still can't quite wrap my head around someone claiming the US needs alliance from an autocrat, who doesn't believe in Western values, whose opponents all have mysterious accidents, who occupies other countries and backs Assad and tries to wreak havoc on western countries... to fight Germany, a country that shares US values like only few others. There is some crazy stuff coming out from the reactionary wing of the conservative movement.

If this is your lens on America then you should know that a variety of opinions is promoted and everyone can be skeptical or everything. The fact you are so dismissive of this issue is troubling. It must be nice thinking that Germany, one of the worst nations of the past century, is just a bunch of care free innocents.

The US allies with all types. Including the human rights violators from the Middle East. Detente has always worked when you focus on the issues you can work together. No one is giving Russia a pass.... it's just prudent to not pretend that the Germans only have good intentions.