With Ivanka Trump’s Blessing, White House Ditches Equal Pay Rule

[StLucieBengal]

(09-04-2017, 01:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What does that have to do with any of the data on this? Is there data that women aren't as willing to work the different hours?

Yes. This was mentioned by time in their story.

[Belsnickel]

(09-04-2017, 05:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes. This was mentioned by time in their story.

I haven't seen any TIME story.

[GMDino]

(09-04-2017, 01:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: If a woman is ok with not being there to raise her children or not have any children at all, while not being concerned with how many off hours they work, then they will be essentially working like a man.  

The only way this is the same is if women just turn their backs on their natural desire to care for their family or be the heart bear of their family.    That's women's role and job.   The men are naturally pushed to go work and bring home the resources needed for the home and family to work.  

That's a very old fashioned way of looking at it. And one that doesn't work in two-working parent households.

(09-04-2017, 01:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Lol at stay at home men.    We have a fear that our daughters bring home one of these types.

What's funny is some of the best men I know are stay at home dad's. I'd think anyone would be proud to have them in their family.

Better?

[StLucieBengal]

(09-04-2017, 08:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: That's a very old fashioned way of looking at it. And one that doesn't work in two-working parent households.


What's funny is some of the best men I know are stay at home dad's. I'd think anyone would be proud to have them in their family.

Better?

We have a two working parent home and it works out fantastically. Women are by nature are better suited to care for children and the home. Men are like sharks ..... just keep swimming forward.

That's fine I am sure there are good men out there who don't mind being the women of the relationship. We just do not want our daughters marrying weak men who they have to carry.

[GMDino]

(09-04-2017, 11:10 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We have a two working parent home and it works out fantastically.  Women are by nature are better suited to care for children and the home.    Men are like sharks ..... just keep swimming forward.  

That's fine I am sure there are good men out there who don't mind being the women of the relationship.    We just do not want our daughters marrying weak men who they have to carry.

How dumb.

I can't imagine being so insecure that a man who stays at home threatens my idea of what a "man" is.

Get along now....

[StLucieBengal]

(09-04-2017, 11:19 PM)GMDino Wrote:

How dumb.

I can't imagine being so insecure that a man who stays at home threatens my idea of what a "man" is.

Get along now....

A man who stays at home isn't providing for his family. Providing for your family is the definition of what a man does..... that's his job.

A man’s role is to take care of the financial responsibilities of the household. His job is to provide a warm roof, clothes on our backs, food on the table, security, keep the lights and heat on, etc. He is, in fact, the leader and the ultimate decision maker for his wife and children. A woman’s role is to support her husband and bear and nurture the children so that they grow up to be productive members of society.m. The man’s role is to help their mother discipline them if necessary and to help with goal setting and providing the necessary educational foundation and support for growth and development. A father provides tough love, a mother often provides love through understanding, and the two make one team.

A man can not do these things if he is playing Mr Mom.

How will his son learn how to be a strong family man? I guess he will be looking for a woman to take care of him.

Not to mention .... divorce rates are 40-50% higher for families with stay at home dad's.


Obviously this has hit a nerve with you. That's fine for your family have all the man wife's/Mr mom's you want.... but in our family we will push and support tried and true family roles that have a proven track record of success.

We can agree to disagree. I wouldn't want you to get emotional over something on a message board.

[Belsnickel]

Sexism is fun.

[GMDino]

I've always found that it's always the ones that pretend to be the most manly they find foot tapping in an airport bathroom.  Usually they claim others are too emotional and not "real men".


How people get through their entire lives still believing these old tropes is beyond me.

But then I know a lot of "men" whose entire sense of self worth comes from the size of the genitals and how much better they are than women.  They're the same ones who say women can't do what men can do anyway so I'm not sure how them being better is a huge win.  

Men and women are equals.  One can work.  One can stay home.  And that doesn't change a thing about them as people.  

As I said, there are men, real men...not internet tough talking men...who would put a lot of "bread winner" men to shame with how they provide for their families and what they are teaching their children.  Just as there are a lot of "traditional men" who are so intimidated by the thought of a woman daring to not be some stereotyped version out of 50's television that they can't handle any variation on their world view.

Sad.

That's why I say if a man and a woman are doing the same job they should get the same pay for the same work.  If a company pays a man more because he asked? That's a shitty company that could afford to pay more but wanted to screw its employees.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-05-2017, 08:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: If a company pays a man more because he asked? That's a shitty company that could afford to pay more but wanted to screw its employees.

Negotiation is a skill. Companies hire and pay people based off their skills, and by negotiating (well), you're showing that company a skill they are willing to pay extra for because then it's a skill that will be working to their benefit. It is no different than if you're hiring two people for an IT job and one of them has extra certifications that you want, so you pay them a little more.

If you go to buy a car, there are some people who stupidly pay the sticker price, and some people who negotiate to get a better deal. It's not on the company to give every single person the best deal anyone has negotiated for. A company isn't a charity.

[GMDino]

(09-05-2017, 10:20 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Negotiation is a skill. Companies hire and pay people based off their skills, and by negotiating (well), you're showing that company a skill they are willing to pay extra for because then it's a skill that will be working to their benefit. It is no different than if you're hiring two people for an IT job and one of them has extra certifications that you want, so you pay them a little more.

If you go to buy a car, there are some people who stupidly pay the sticker price, and some people who negotiate to get a better deal. It's not on the company to give every single person the best deal anyone has negotiated for. A company isn't a charity.

And I don't like care salesman either.  Just do it and move along.

And if someone has an extra education the employer desires that make sense.  If the employer just wants to see how little he can pay someone he's shitty.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-05-2017, 10:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: And I don't like care salesman either.  Just do it and move along.

And if someone has an extra education the employer desires that make sense.  If the employer just wants to see how little he can pay someone he's shitty.

Not just cars. Go to buy a lawnmower or washing machine or something? Not everyone offers free delivery, but if you are any good at negotiation, you can always get it. Negotiation really can apply to a lot of things in life. Get yourself some extra freebies on a cable deal, or get a free upgrade on your internet speed, or a better deal on your cell phone plan.

Skill in negotiation IS extra education. Not all education comes from a school with a piece of paper.

Why is the employer automatically a "he"? Sexist pig.

[GMDino]

(09-05-2017, 10:34 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not just cars. Go to buy a lawnmower or washing machine or something? Not everyone offers free delivery, but if you are any good at negotiation, you can always get it. Negotiation really can apply to a lot of things in life.

Skill in negotiation IS extra education. Not all education comes from a school with a piece of paper.

Why is the employer automatically a "he"? Sexist pig.

That's me going to buy something.  I hate that too.  Everywhere.  It's a stupid game that I don't play.

I'm not buying a job.  I'm either qualified or I am not.  I will either be trained or I will not.

If a business owner (better?) is trying to save a buck by not paying his employees the business owner (better?) is a shitty person.  Because they (better?) will cut corners everywhere else when it comes to their (better?) employees.

Not a place I'd want to work.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-05-2017, 10:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: That's me going to buy something.  I hate that too.  Everywhere.  It's a stupid game that I don't play.

I'm not buying a job.  I'm either qualified or I am not.  I will either be trained or I will not.

If a business owner (better?) is trying to save a buck by not paying his employees the business owner (better?) is a shitty person.  Because they (better?) will cut corners everywhere else when it comes to their (better?) employees.

Not a place I'd want to work.

You can't refuse to negotiate, and then complain how it's unfair when someone else does and comes out ahead.

Where does it stop? Are college degrees a stupid game? High school diplomas? Does that mean business owners who pay people more for having one than those without are shitty people, too? Oh, you learned math? Sure, but why should you get paid more than someone who thinks math is a stupid game that they don't want to play? Pay the illiterate and the literate the same amount! Universal pay, regardless of education or skills!

Or perhaps it is that only the skills YOU think are worthy are eligible to qualify people for higher pay, keeping them from being a "shitty person"?

You're not buying a job, but you're selling your services to a potential employer. That makes you a salesperson in an interview, and good salespeople are capable of negotiation.

[GMDino]

(09-05-2017, 11:28 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You can't refuse to negotiate, and then complain how it's unfair when someone else does and comes out ahead.

Where does it stop? Are college degrees a stupid game? High school diplomas? Does that mean business owners who pay people more for having one than those without are shitty people, too? Oh, you learned math? Sure, but why should you get paid more than someone who thinks math is a stupid game that they don't want to play? Pay the illiterate and the literate the same amount! Universal pay, regardless of education or skills!

Or perhaps it is that only the skills YOU think are worthy are eligible to qualify people for higher pay, keeping them from being a "shitty person"?

You're not buying a job, but you're selling your services to a potential employer. That makes you a salesperson in an interview, and good salespeople are capable of negotiation.

Not real sure how we got from an employer who tries to pay less than they should/can unless the employee begs for more to diplomas.

I'm sure that can be explained...somehow.

I believe I said that if someone has a skill/education that the employer values more that makes sense when it comes to pay.

Oh, wait...I did say that.

(09-05-2017, 10:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: And if someone has an extra education the employer desires that make sense. 

Sooo....not sure what is being argued there.

I've said, pretty clearly, two people doing the same work at the same job should be paid the same.  If an employer wants someone with a college degree but highers someone without they chose to do that and the pay should be the same if the employee is doing the same work and the expected level of production.

Anyway...I *can* refuse to negotiate.  I often do.  I *am* a salesman.  And I've created a pretty good customer base by telling them the truth up front and letting them know they don't have to play games to get the "best deal".  

I fully realize that most people think if they an screw their fellow citizen out of anything to get themselves a wee little bit ahead they will.  I just don't play that game.

Yes, even when I am buying.  I know the value of stuff before I go in.  If the salesperson (better?) wants to play I tell them I don't do that.  This is the value.  If that's their prerogative but I'll just shop elsewhere.

Again, that's just me.  I prefer honesty and being up front to wasting time.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-05-2017, 10:34 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not just cars. Go to buy a lawnmower or washing machine or something? Not everyone offers free delivery, but if you are any good at negotiation, you can always get it. Negotiation really can apply to a lot of things in life. Get yourself some extra freebies on a cable deal, or get a free upgrade on your internet speed, or a better deal on your cell phone plan.

Skill in negotiation IS extra education. Not all education comes from a school with a piece of paper.

Why is the employer automatically a "he"? Sexist pig.

These guys do not get this at all. They just want everyone to get all the perks for no effort.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-05-2017, 10:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: That's me going to buy something.  I hate that too.  Everywhere.  It's a stupid game that I don't play.

I'm not buying a job.  I'm either qualified or I am not.  I will either be trained or I will not.

If a business owner (better?) is trying to save a buck by not paying his employees the business owner (better?) is a shitty person.  Because they (better?) will cut corners everywhere else when it comes to their (better?) employees.

Not a place I'd want to work.

You do buy a job. You work on your presentation to make to your future employer which should compel them to hire you.

It's called having a dog and pony show to get what you want ...... or as the rest of us call it ..... life.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-05-2017, 08:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Sexism is fun.

(09-05-2017, 08:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: I've always found that it's always the ones that pretend to be the most manly they find foot tapping in an airport bathroom.  Usually they claim others are too emotional and not "real men".


How people get through their entire lives still believing these old tropes is beyond me.

But then I know a lot of "men" whose entire sense of self worth comes from the size of the genitals and how much better they are than women.  They're the same ones who say women can't do what men can do anyway so I'm not sure how them being better is a huge win.  

Men and women are equals.  One can work.  One can stay home.  And that doesn't change a thing about them as people.  

As I said, there are men, real men...not internet tough talking men...who would put a lot of "bread winner" men to shame with how they provide for their families and what they are teaching their children.  Just as there are a lot of "traditional men" who are so intimidated by the thought of a woman daring to not be some stereotyped version out of 50's television that they can't handle any variation on their world view.

Sad.

That's why I say if a man and a woman are doing the same job they should get the same pay for the same work.  If a company pays a man more because he asked? That's a shitty company that could afford to pay more but wanted to screw its employees.

Lol at you both.

Sorry if we care about how our children are raised to the point that we make personal sacrifices to ensure they have what they need at home.

These comments coming from you two are not surprising at all.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-04-2017, 01:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do you/your office pay women less?

Everyone of my employees start out at the same rate a couple have distanced themselves but it has zero to do with male or female. It's purely numbers driven. And resets at the end of the year.

Thus ending the myth your employees can negotiate an individual wage on their own.

But, inexplicably, teachers can negotiate an individual wage on their own.

[Belsnickel]

(09-05-2017, 05:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Lol at you both.

Sorry if we care about how our children are raised to the point that we make personal sacrifices to ensure they have what they need at home.

These comments coming from you two are not surprising at all.

I'm not sorry for pointing out the inherent sexism in your generalizations of people. And it shouldn't be surprising, because I don't have a problem pointing out things like sexism. I don't throw the -isms around a ton, but what you said was textbook.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-04-2017, 01:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: If a woman is ok with not being there to raise her children or not have any children at all, while not being concerned with how many off hours they work, then they will be essentially working like a man.

The only way this is the same is if women just turn their backs on their natural desire to care for their family or be the heart bear of their family. That's women's role and job. The men are naturally pushed to go work and bring home the resources needed for the home and family to work.

Lol at stay at home men. We have a fear that our daughters bring home one of these types.

(09-04-2017, 11:10 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We have a two working parent home and it works out fantastically. Women are by nature are better suited to care for children and the home. Men are like sharks ..... just keep swimming forward.

That's fine I am sure there are good men out there who don't mind being the women of the relationship. We just do not want our daughters marrying weak men who they have to carry.

How does that work fantastically? Your wife takes care of the kids despite your claim that women must turn their backs on their family to work like a man. It's amazing she has the time to work like a man and home school your two children in different foreign languages simultaneously. (I guess she doesn't have the time or inclination to teach them mathematics which must be why they bring home common core math homework from the public school you don't send them to.)

She works like a man, home schools two kids in different foreign languages simultaneously, cooks, cleans, etc while you post stories from the daily wire. And you don't think there is a wage gap? LMFAO!