Womens Olympic competition are no longer just women

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2016, 12:31 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This reminds me of the transsexual man who was competing in women's MMA.
I mean, I'm not terribly against it...but it should only be for post-op.
Pre-op is just going to lead to countries trying to cheat the rules.

This would be my position also.  No one is going to go through that just to win at a sport.  But even post-op have a physical advantage over genetic females.  This was a big issue back when Renee Richards was trying to play womens tennis.  Even though she was post-op she still had a man's body.

So the options are 1) Allow post op women to compete with genetic women even though they may have a physical advantage 2) Tell all post op women they are barred from all competitions.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-23-2016, 11:26 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It should be noted that the current rules of the NCAA and the new Olympic rules require transwomen (male to female) to be undergoing hormone treatment therapy. Given the current state of "sex change" operations (cost/coverage, results, complications, finding someone who will actually do it), it's understandable why so few trans people actually get surgery and just have hormone treatment. 

A year or two of hormone therapy would constitute a "transition". The current rules, despite what OP wants to suggest, wouldn't involve people just changing their gender on a whim and suddenly being allowed to compete.

So how much hormone treatment therapy does one need? Could they start it two years in advance and qualify?


It just seems silly to me to do this. It's not about being inclusive or divisive, it's about fairness in sport which is what the Olympics strives for. Maybe make a new category for transsexual peoples to compete. 

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2016, 01:57 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote:  Maybe make a new category for transsexual peoples to compete. 

If it becomes a big issue this may be the answer.

I'll bet if they made it post-op only there would not be enough cases to worry about.

[Vlad]

(01-23-2016, 12:30 PM)GMDino Wrote:


I didn't say they were ugly.  You obsession with physical beauty makes me worry for your children sometimes.

I was pointing out that many "proper women" took steroids and the like to enhance their physical ability.  Especially in the Communist regions.  And really it just took about 20 seconds of a google search.  Those were the first few I found.

Doesn't mean they are ugly...it means that they weren't "playing fair" either.

Oh...and one them is a man who participated as a woman at the request / demand of the East German government.  Not a man going through transitioning...a man.


Can you pick out who it was?

What does steroid use have to do with the OP?





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[Vlad]

Why not have a transgender Olympics like we have the Special Olympics.

These people are indeed special.




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[BmorePat87]

(01-23-2016, 01:57 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: So how much hormone treatment therapy does one need? Could they start it two years in advance and qualify?


It just seems silly to me to do this. It's not about being inclusive or divisive, it's about fairness in sport which is what the Olympics strives for. Maybe make a new category for transsexual peoples to compete. 

I imagine the amount of therapy one needs varies. Different people produce different levels of hormones. What I am getting at is the only reason to call for post op only is if you think someone would go through years of hormones therapy to win a sport and then try to reverse it. 

The surgery itself doesn't make a difference in their ability and, given how rarely it is done, you basically wouldn't have anyone compete.

Hell, I doubt there are a huge number of trans athletes qualifying for the Olympics to begin with. 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-23-2016, 02:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I imagine the amount of therapy one needs varies. Different people produce different levels of hormones. What I am getting at is the only reason to call for post op only is if you think someone would go through years of hormones therapy to win a sport and then try to reverse it. 

The surgery itself doesn't make a difference in their ability and, given how rarely it is done, you basically wouldn't have anyone compete.

Hell, I doubt there are a huge number of trans athletes qualifying for the Olympics to begin with. 

I disagree with the reversing it notion. I think if someone felt they could keep the upper hand they would stay "pre-op" for as long as they could. 
And if you have ever met an Olympian or seen them, this wouldn't shock me if they did try shit like this to compete. They are a different breed of humans.

[Rotobeast]

(01-23-2016, 12:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh...and one them is a man who participated as a woman at the request / demand of the East German government.  Not a man going through transitioning...a man.


Can you pick out who it was?

The one running next to the javelin thrower, in the b&w photo.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2016, 02:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I disagree with the reversing it notion. I think if someone felt they could keep the upper hand they would stay "pre-op" for as long as they could. 
And if you have ever met an Olympian or seen them, this wouldn't shock me if they did try shit like this to compete. They are a different breed of humans.

On the other hand, what kind of guy would brag about winning a trophy against girls.  The more I think about it the less I think any guy could "go back" once he competed against women.

But right now it is definitely a messy situation.  Obviously sports is not a big enough issue to justify being against transgenders.  It is mainly just an issue for people who are already against it to complain about.  But for the people actually out there competing it is a huge issue.  Out of respect to them it needs to be treated as a serious issue within the confines of the sports world.

[Vlad]

I'd wouldn't be happy if my daughter lost Taekwondo match because she was forced to fight a guy who thinks he's a woman.





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[GMDino]

(01-23-2016, 12:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes I am such a dirtbag.   When someone spends the time and energy to take care of themselves I acknowledge their hard work and dedication.

(01-23-2016, 12:47 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: My children will be just fine.   Their mother teaches them how to groom themselves.   I think  She does a great job for herself so I have full confidence in her abilities.  

Now as for the other part.....   I asked before if you guys wanted to do a he/she thread where we could pick out he or she ....   But a few were quite upset at that idea.   Now are you telling me you want to do a he/she contest?

You're the one who brought up their looks.

I imagine some of them are too "thick" for you and should be shunned.

However I am talking about YOU first post about a man going through transition having an unfair advantage over those poor, weak women....can you tell which one was a man in the those pictures?  And again, its not someone taking hormones...it is a man.

[GMDino]

(01-23-2016, 02:57 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: The one running next to the javelin thrower, in the b&w photo.

Nope.  That should help Lucy...LOL!

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2016, 03:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nope.  That should help Lucy...LOL!

The first one (shot put) later became a man.  

The one doing the High Jump looks like the guy that played Eminem's mom's boyfriend on 8-mile. 

[GMDino]

(01-23-2016, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The first one (shot put) later became a man.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Krieger

Quote:Andreas Krieger (born Heidi Krieger on 20 July 1966) is a German former shot putter who competed on the women's East German athletics team at SC Dynamo Berlin. After years of being systematically and unknowingly doped with anabolic steroids by East German officials,[1] which caused body chemistry issues, Heidi Krieger underwent gender reassignment surgery and became a trans man. Krieger says that while he did experience gender dysphoria before being doped, he regretted not being able to make the actual transition without the doping abuses.

(01-23-2016, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The one doing the High Jump looks like the guy that played Eminem's mom's boyfriend on 8-mile. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Ratjen

Quote:Heinrich Ratjen (20 November 1918 – 22 April 2008),[1] born Dora Ratjen, was a German athlete who competed for Germany in the women's high jump at the 1936 Summer Olympics at Berlin, finishing fourth, but was later discovered to be male.

...

Ratjen was born in Erichshof, near Bremen, into a family described as "simple folk". The father, Heinrich Ratjen, stated in 1938: "When the child was born the midwife called over to me, 'Heini, it's a boy!' But five minutes later she said to me, 'It is a girl, after all.'" Nine months later, when the child, who had been christened Dora, was ill, a doctor examined the child's genitalia and, according to Heinrich, said "Let it be. You can't do anything about it anyway." Dora stated, also in 1938: "My parents brought me up as a girl [and] I therefore wore girl's clothes all my childhood. But from the age of 10 or 11 I started to realize I wasn't female, but male. However I never asked my parents why I had to wear women's clothes even though I was male."[2]


In his teens, Dora began competing successfully as a girl at sports, apparently being "too embarrassed to talk about what was happening to him". In 1936, he took part in the Olympics, his teammate Gretel Bergmann stating: "I never had any suspicions, not even once... In the communal shower we wondered why she never showed herself naked. It was grotesque that someone could still be that shy at the age of 17. We just thought, 'She's strange. She's odd'... But no-one knew or noticed anything about her different sexuality."[2] In 1938, Ratjen competed at the European Athletics Championships, and won the gold medal with a world record jump of 1.67 m (5 ft 5.75 in).[3]

In 1939 he broke the world record in the high jump.[4] But Dorothy Tyler-Odam was suspicious of Ratjen and, according to Odam, "They wrote to me telling me I didn't hold the record, so I wrote to them saying, 'She's not a woman, she's a man'. They did some research and found 'her' serving as a waiter called Hermann Ratjen. So I got my world record back."[4] Odam's world record was formally recognized by the sport's world governing body, the IAAF, in 1957.[4]

Gender controversy[edit]
On 21 September 1938, Ratjen took an express train from Vienna to Cologne. The conductor of the train reported to the police at the station in Magdeburg that there was "a man dressed as a woman" in the train. Ratjen was ordered out of the train and questioned by the police. He showed his genuine documents which said he was a woman, but after some hesitation, admitted to being a man and told his story. A physician was summoned and after an examination pronounced Ratjen to be male. However, the physician described Ratjen's intersex genitalia as having a "coarse scarred stripe from the tip of the penis to the rear", and stated his opinion that with this organ sexual intercourse would be impossible.[2]

The athlete was arrested, and sent to Hohenlychen sports sanatorium for further tests, with the same results. Criminal proceedings continued until 10 March 1939, when the public prosecutor stated: "Fraud cannot be deemed to have taken place because there was no intention to reap financial reward." Dora promised the authorities he would "cease engaging in sport with immediate effect". The athlete's father, Heinrich Ratjen, initially insisted that Dora should continue to be treated as female, but on 29 March 1939 wrote to the police chief of Bremen: "Following the change of the registry office entry regarding the child's sex, I would request you change the child's first name to Heinrich." The gold medal won by Ratjen was returned and his name expunged from the records.[2]

[*Nately120*]

(01-23-2016, 03:05 PM)Vlad Wrote: I'd wouldn't be happy if my daughter lost Taekwondo match because she was forced to fight a guy who thinks he's a woman.

The solution to this is to practice hard enough to beat anyone who thinks he/she is anything? But really now, are we really concerned about the integrity of sports or are we just obsessing about penises again?

[Belsnickel]

(01-23-2016, 02:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I disagree with the reversing it notion. I think if someone felt they could keep the upper hand they would stay "pre-op" for as long as they could. 
And if you have ever met an Olympian or seen them, this wouldn't shock me if they did try shit like this to compete. They are a different breed of humans.

What you're saying isn't really disagreeing with him, it's just saying you believe that athletes would do that. This has more to do with just the hormone therapy, it requires living as the gender you are identifying as. The level of commitment required to pull it off would be remarkable, and honestly would take more than the athlete training to do better if they didn't actually identify as a different gender.

[Vlad]

(01-23-2016, 03:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The solution to this is to practice hard enough to beat anyone who thinks he/she is anything?  But really now, are we really concerned about the integrity of sports or are we just obsessing about penises again?

Yes exactly.

Your first question. If anyone can translate that mess please do so I can help Nate out.

[StLucieBengal]

fredtoa Wrote:Noi you don't.  You believe that athletes who take care of themselves by not taking steroids should be made to compete on an equal level with those who do use steroids.  You want to award the guys who get it done through chemicals instead of hard work.

Some dude taking estrogen to get below an arbitrary line so they can smash women in sports is also cheating. It's just a new form of performance enhancement. It will just now effect women's sports. Well actually it will kill women's sports.

[StLucieBengal]

fredtoa Wrote:If it becomes a big issue this may be the answer.

I'll bet if they made it post-op only there would not be enough cases to worry about.

I agree with this 100%. Why are they even creating any drama allowing pre op. Seems like a bad message to send to girls and woman athletes .

[StLucieBengal]

Nately1 Wrote:The solution to this is to practice hard enough to beat anyone who thinks he/she is anything?  But really now, are we really concerned about the integrity of sports or are we just obsessing about penises again?

Integrity is all you have In sports. Yes we have some shady people involved now. But this is basically making female atheltics a joke. This will get down to high schools and it will be a way for people to dominate.