Your Gun Control Laws

[*bfine32*]

(12-09-2015, 04:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No. Your friend does not have a right to own the SCAR, specifically.

Okey Dokey, we'll leave it up to folks that can read.

It appears your stance is that because 7 states have placed restrictions on a right means that citizens of the rest of the Nation no longer have the right to own an assault weapon.

[Belsnickel]

(12-09-2015, 04:00 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Ok... let me get this straight

The Federal Government does not give me the right to have a semi-automatic assault rifle, but I can send the proper forms to the BATF (run by the Federal Government) and given permission to own a fully automatic machine gun.

Is this a "right" vs "privilege" thing and discussion of strict definition of each ?

It doesn't even get into the BATF controls. We have a right to own firearms, as laid out 7 years ago now, according to the 2nd. That right is not without limits however, and as such there have been bans upheld on weapons styled by some as assault weapons. My contention is that while it may be legal in some areas still to own these weapons, there is no right to the ownership of those weapons since the legality can be ended by the government.

It does boil down to right v. privilege, though.

[Benton]

(12-09-2015, 03:56 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: Gun control is a hot button issue for a lot of people in this country and forcing it upon kids because some think it's what this country is all about is wrong.

I don't look at it as forcing it on kids. I advocate a firearm safety class in schools for the same reason I advocate sex ed in schools: because giving someone as much information as possible is a better solution than never talking about something and hoping it fixes itself.

[Belsnickel]

(12-09-2015, 04:10 PM)Benton Wrote: I don't look at it as forcing it on kids. I advocate a firearm safety class in schools for the same reason I advocate sex ed in schools: because giving someone as much information as possible is a better solution than never talking about something and hoping it fixes itself.

Agreed. I compared it to sex ed, but my wife mad ea more apt comparison to driver's ed. There would be a classroom portion that would be talking about general firearm safety and whatnot, but if you had any desire to purchase, own, carry, a firearm there would be a require practical portion. A "behind the sights" if you will. This way it does not require anyone that may be against firearms to actually have to handle one and separating out those two things provides an avenue for those that may not have had instruction to take it in a separate place from the school.

[*Nately120*]

(12-09-2015, 04:10 PM)Benton Wrote: I don't look at it as forcing it on kids. I advocate a firearm safety class in schools for the same reason I advocate sex ed in schools: because giving someone as much information as possible is a better solution than never talking about something and hoping it fixes itself.

Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but I never saw guns as relevant to daily life as driving a car and/or understanding sex (as much as I wish sex itself were part of my daily life).  If I had a class on guns in school I wager I still wouldn't have touched a gun since.  Maybe everyone else is around guns a lot more than me and the people I know, but guns just don't seem "daily life" enough to me to warrant nation-wide coverage in the classroom.

Also, would it be a national thing?  Are we really going to expect teachers to explain and/or hand guns to inner-city students on taxpayer's dime?  Ida know about that.  

[*bfine32*]

(12-09-2015, 02:37 PM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, that wasn't the issue. The issue was the legality of it based off form and function. Form and function of a sports car is to go fast. You said you can't legally do that... but you can. Form and function of an assault rifle is to kill things quickly. Outside of mice and maybe squirrels, there's not much you can kill in large volume without breaking a law.

..and I shared with you that there are laws that prohibit a high performance vehicle from accelerating to the capacity of its form and function. A high-performance car given its form and function is designed to break the law.

[CageTheBengal]

Quote:Benton


I don't look at it as forcing it on kids. I advocate a firearm safety class in schools for the same reason I advocate sex ed in schools: because giving someone as much information as possible is a better solution than never talking about something and hoping it fixes itself.

(12-09-2015, 04:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Agreed. I compared it to sex ed, but my wife mad ea more apt comparison to driver's ed. There would be a classroom portion that would be talking about general firearm safety and whatnot, but if you had any desire to purchase, own, carry, a firearm there would be a require practical portion. A "behind the sights" if you will. This way it does not require anyone that may be against firearms to actually have to handle one and separating out those two things provides an avenue for those that may not have had instruction to take it in a separate place from the school.

If you have to pass and/or take the class to graduate it's forcing it upon kids there's no other way to slice it.

Their are a few differences between sex ed and drivers ed (which was never taught at my school.) that doesn't make it a fair comparison to gun safety imo. Just about every human will have sex or operate a motor vehicle it's nearly a fact of life in the country. Not everyone will be in a situation where they need a gun. I don't think pro gun citizens are having trouble finding different avenues to learn about guns. It's not just a tool in the USA it's a part of the culture.  The debate is everywhere we turn.

Personally I think the movement to try to put guns in the class room is another way for groups like the NRA to further embed themselves into American culture and to shut down the gun control debate. What better way to cut down the debate in the future then making it a part of kids lives before they even knew they had a choice?

[Belsnickel]

(12-09-2015, 04:41 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: If you have to pass and/or take the class to graduate it's forcing it upon kids there's no other way to slice it.

Their are a few differences between sex ed and drivers ed (which was never taught at my school.) that doesn't make it a fair comparison to gun safety imo. Just about every human will have sex or operate a motor vehicle it's nearly a fact of life in the country. Not everyone will be in a situation where they need a gun. I don't think pro gun citizens are having trouble finding different avenues to learn about guns. It's not just a tool in the USA it's a part of the culture.  The debate is everywhere we turn.

Personally I think the movement to try to put guns in the class room is another way for groups like the NRA to further embed themselves into American culture and to shut down the gun control debate. What better way to cut down the debate in the future then making it a part of kids lives before they even knew they had a choice?

I think oftentimes that my upbringing has colored my view in a different way for this sort of thing. In my area, during my youth, guns were an inevitable part of life. Even growing up a pacifist we owned firearms for hunting. I was born owning a rifle. So my experiences lead me to the attitude of guns are all around us, basic safety with a firearm is something everyone, regardless of their background, should be taught because there is a chance that they will need to know it. I'm not talking about putting one in their hands and teaching them these things, but rather just the basics. The practical portion, not required for school but required for ownership, would be a different story.

All of that being said, that is what I see as beneficial based upon my life experiences.

[*Nately120*]

(12-09-2015, 04:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think oftentimes that my upbringing has colored my view in a different way for this sort of thing. In my area, during my youth, guns were an inevitable part of life. Even growing up a pacifist we owned firearms for hunting. I was born owning a rifle. So my experiences lead me to the attitude of guns are all around us, basic safety with a firearm is something everyone, regardless of their background, should be taught because there is a chance that they will need to know it. I'm not talking about putting one in their hands and teaching them these things, but rather just the basics. The practical portion, not required for school but required for ownership, would be a different story.

All of that being said, that is what I see as beneficial based upon my life experiences.

I am from an embarrassingly small town in western PA, and some folks had guns and some didn't and that really was all I thought about it. When I became an adult and started paying attention to politics I suddenly realized the fact that my family went to church and others didn't, and that some families owned guns and ours didn't were "big deals."  

There are so many more practical things we could be teaching in schools, but teaching every kid how to handle a gun might be as statistically relevant as teaching every kid how to write left-handed.

[Belsnickel]

(12-09-2015, 05:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I am from an embarrassingly small town in western PA, and some folks had guns and some didn't and that really was all I thought about it. When I became an adult and started paying attention to politics I suddenly realized the fact that my family went to church and others didn't, and that some families owned guns and ours didn't were "big deals."  

There are so many more practical things we could be teaching in schools, but teaching every kid how to handle a gun might be as statistically relevant as teaching every kid how to write left-handed.

How embarrassingly small? Under 5k for me.

But I grew up in Virginia, so where I am currently is what really colored my opinion on things.

[*Nately120*]

(12-09-2015, 05:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: How embarrassingly small? Under 5k for me.

But I grew up in Virginia, so where I am currently is what really colored my opinion on things.

Ah, well it's been under 7,000 and steadily shrinking since 1990, and it's less than 6,000 now.  I have to say it is also interesting to think that IF teaching firearms were to become part of the national curriculum then those studying to be teachers would have a certain number of required credits in firearms-related courses. Think of all those liberal arts campuses with shooting ranges for the aspiring teachers. Wacky.

You know, I'm coming around to the idea that this notion may be just another way to sell guns.

[Belsnickel]

(12-09-2015, 05:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ah, well it's been under 7,000 and steadily shrinking since 1990, and it's less than 6,000 now.  I have to say it is also interesting to think that IF teaching firearms were to become part of the national curriculum then those studying to be teachers would have a certain number of required credits in firearms-related courses. Think of all those liberal arts campuses with shooting ranges for the aspiring teachers. Wacky.

You know, I'm coming around to the idea that this notion may be just another way to sell guns.

My hometown's high point was 1930, still shrinking. Good ol' SW PA.

I don't know, talking about some of these things and hearing people with different experiences helps me form my opinion on these things. I guess as someone who has spent time teaching youth firearm safety it is a very important thing to me, and the culture in this area would be one supportive of this sort of thing. But the more we discuss it the more I am questioning it in my head.

[Benton]

(12-09-2015, 04:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Agreed. I compared it to sex ed, but my wife mad ea more apt comparison to driver's ed. There would be a classroom portion that would be talking about general firearm safety and whatnot, but if you had any desire to purchase, own, carry, a firearm there would be a require practical portion. A "behind the sights" if you will. This way it does not require anyone that may be against firearms to actually have to handle one and separating out those two things provides an avenue for those that may not have had instruction to take it in a separate place from the school.

Pretty much my thoughts. As I've said on here before, I had an Ag class where we did skeet shooting. I already had gun safety lessons at home, but it was still a good lesson. If nothing else, if reinforced what my dad taught me.

(12-09-2015, 04:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but I never saw guns as relevant to daily life as driving a car and/or understanding sex (as much as I wish sex itself were part of my daily life).  If I had a class on guns in school I wager I still wouldn't have touched a gun since.  Maybe everyone else is around guns a lot more than me and the people I know, but guns just don't seem "daily life" enough to me to warrant nation-wide coverage in the classroom.

Also, would it be a national thing?  Are we really going to expect teachers to explain and/or hand guns to inner-city students on taxpayer's dime?  Ida know about that.  

I don't come into contact with guns on a daily basis. Most of us don't. But I also don't have to use the Pythagorean Thereom that much either and I still spent weeks on it.

And, ultimately, we aren't talking about a course where you spend several weeks. For basic gun safety, you can make it a one week lesson.

As far as the bold, yes. Although I'd have a paraprofessional or someone qualified teach the course and not expect the gym teacher to hand out shotguns during dodgeball. And while that may seem weird in cities, lots of urban schools have archery programs. With the right precautions, it's perfectly safe.

(12-09-2015, 04:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ..and I shared with you that there are laws that prohibit a high performance vehicle from accelerating to the capacity of its form and function. A high-performance car given its form and function is designed to break the law.

...and those laws are different from place to place. Ticky tack, man. Not to mention you can still do it at a variety of places (your own property, a racetrack, etc) and break no laws.

Again, you cannot do that with an assault rifle as its form and function break laws in just about every state.

(12-09-2015, 04:41 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote:  you have to pass and/or take the class to graduate it's forcing it upon kids there's no other way to slice it.

Their are a few differences between sex ed and drivers ed (which was never taught at my school.) that doesn't make it a fair comparison to gun safety imo. Just about every human will have sex or operate a motor vehicle it's nearly a fact of life in the country. Not everyone will be in a situation where they need a gun. I don't think pro gun citizens are having trouble finding different avenues to learn about guns. It's not just a tool in the USA it's a part of the culture.  The debate is everywhere we turn.

Personally I think the movement to try to put guns in the class room is another way for groups like the NRA to further embed themselves into American culture and to shut down the gun control debate. What better way to cut down the debate in the future then making it a part of kids lives before they even knew they had a choice?

Real numbers are hard to get, but it's estimated 1 in 3 Americans live in a home with a gun. That's a pretty significant chunk of folks.

And I don't understand the thinking it's teaching kids some kind of gun culture. It's teaching them basic safety of something dangerous they may come into contact with during their life. Isn't that part of why we educate kids?

[*Nately120*]

(12-09-2015, 05:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: My hometown's high point was 1930, still shrinking. Good ol' SW PA.

I don't know, talking about some of these things and hearing people with different experiences helps me form my opinion on these things. I guess as someone who has spent time teaching youth firearm safety it is a very important thing to me, and the culture in this area would be one supportive of this sort of thing. But the more we discuss it the more I am questioning it in my head.

Ha, I'm already picturing the government handing some titanic no-bid contract to a gun manufacturer to supply every public school in the USA with 1,000 firearms of different styles and sizes to ensure our youth learn the essentials of firearm safety.

[Rotobeast]

At the very least, the results of gunshot wounds should be shown in Health class, or something.
It wouldn't be much different from the gore displayed in the driver's ed classes.
I believe all people need to at least understand the power of firearms.

[*Nately120*]

(12-09-2015, 05:24 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: At the very least, the results of gunshot wounds should be shown in Health class, or something.
It wouldn't be much different from the gore displayed in the driver's ed classes.
I believe all people need to at least understand the power of firearms.

I went to a Catholic school so before I even knew what sex was I was shown a medical picture of a vagina that looked like a Sarlacc pit.

[Rotobeast]

(12-09-2015, 05:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I went to a Catholic school so before I even knew what sex was I was shown a medical picture of a vagina that looked like a Sarlacc pit.

Barbs and all, eh ?
Impressive

[CageTheBengal]

(12-09-2015, 04:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think oftentimes that my upbringing has colored my view in a different way for this sort of thing. In my area, during my youth, guns were an inevitable part of life. Even growing up a pacifist we owned firearms for hunting. I was born owning a rifle. So my experiences lead me to the attitude of guns are all around us, basic safety with a firearm is something everyone, regardless of their background, should be taught because there is a chance that they will need to know it. I'm not talking about putting one in their hands and teaching them these things, but rather just the basics. The practical portion, not required for school but required for ownership, would be a different story.

All of that being said, that is what I see as beneficial based upon my life experiences.

I can respect that. All of us shaped by the atmosphere we grew up in it or are currently living in. Maybe I've let the world I grew up in give me a bad attitude.

I was raised in two distinct worlds. From birth to high school I lived in a pretty diverse area outside Dayton with a huge school district with lots of different people and views on the world where some families were into guns and some weren't. Probably around 1,500 kids in my graduating class Then in high school I moved to a more rural area with a lot less diversity and less then a hundred kids in a graduating class. A lot of the area seemed to be on the same page as far as firearms went. Firearms were treated as almost a badge of honor for extreme conservatives more then a deadly weapon. That's always rubbed me the wrong way.

(12-09-2015, 05:23 PM)Benton Wrote: Real numbers are hard to get, but it's estimated 1 in 3 Americans live in a home with a gun. That's a pretty significant chunk of folks.

And I don't understand the thinking it's teaching kids some kind of gun culture. It's teaching them basic safety of something dangerous they may come into contact with during their life. Isn't that part of why we educate kids?

That is a significant chunk. Isn't it responsible gun ownership to take it upon yourself to learn about gun safety just like it is to lock up your guns? I don't see how anyone should be able to purchase a weapon or obtain a license without taking a course of some kind but that doesn't mean making it a course in school. There are way more practical things to be teaching kids with the limited funding we give to education. Some people plan on never touching a firearm it's not a given like having sex or driving a car.

[Benton]

(12-09-2015, 07:29 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: I can respect that. All of us shaped by the atmosphere we grew up in it or are currently living in. Maybe I've let the world I grew up in give me a bad attitude.

I was raised in two distinct worlds. From birth to high school I lived in a pretty diverse area outside Dayton with a huge school district with lots of different people and views on the world where some families were into guns and some weren't. Probably around 1,500 kids in my graduating class Then in high school I moved to a more rural area with a lot less diversity and less then a hundred kids in a graduating class. A lot of the area seemed to be on the same page as far as firearms went. Firearms were treated as almost a badge of honor for extreme conservatives more then a deadly weapon. That's always rubbed me the wrong way.










That is a significant chunk. Isn't it responsible gun ownership to take it upon yourself to learn about gun safety just like it is to lock up your guns? I don't see how anyone should be able to purchase a weapon or obtain a license without taking a course of some kind but that doesn't mean making it a course in school. There are way more practical things to be teaching kids with the limited funding we give to education. Some people plan on never touching a firearm it's not a given like having sex or driving a car.

I think there should be. And that would be a better way to handle ot than doing it in schools. The problem is, according to some estimates, there are three firearms in the U.S. to every person. I don't know if that's a valid stat or not, but if it's true, that's a butt load of guns already in circulation. If you're only making those in the future take a firearms safety class, you're going to skip millions of people who already own them, inherit them, or spend their childhood growing up around them. 

[Yojimbo]

Abortion? Ban it!
Birth Control? Ban it!
Gay Marriage? Ban it!
Assault rifles? Well people would just figure out how to get them illegally anyways, so...