"mass shootings" and "gun violence" are not the same issue.

[fredtoast]

Mass shootings get all the publicity, but they are only a very small fraction of gun deaths.

Looking for rules that just cut down on "mass shootings" or even more specifically "school shootings" will not address the majority of gun violence in America.

[6andcounting]

I read this article a few days ago, and it's the perfect peace for this thread. The author is a former researcher at 538 who bought into the mass hysteria about the gun problem being mass shootings and demanded polices that curb mass shootings to lower gun crime. She is still largely against guns, but now she proposal public policies that address the root of gun crime.

https://archive.fo/XChCw

[Belsnickel]

I said this in the mass shootings thread:

(02-15-2018, 11:19 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I was thinking about this quite a bit, yesterday. One of the reasons is that I listen to a podcast with my wife called Buffering: The Vampire Slayer which goes episode by episode through Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. My wife and I both enjoy the show and the podcast. This week, the episode that was being dropped was for "Earshot." This episode aired in 1999 and was delayed because of Columbine. The episode dealt with school violence and the timing of it was just a bit eerie. In addition to that, after the Kentucky shooting the ladies at Pantsuit Politics brought up the fact that after Columbine, there was a big conversation that something would be done, and nothing was. 19 years later and nothing has been done. In fact, it has only been made easier for these things to occur with the lapse of the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994. I'm not going to sit here and argue about the efficacy of that law or its merits. It is a fact that the sunset of that law has made it easier for the general public to own firearms that can more effectively kill higher numbers of people in a shorter period of time.

Now that I have gotten that little rant out of the way, I'd like to say that we need to separate the issues of mass shootings and overall gun violence. In fact, we need to separate school shootings from other mass shootings, as well. These are three things that are related to each other, but they are different issues that will need to be addressed in different ways. It is likely that policy solutions for overall firearm violence will help the other two, but there is no one solution that will solve all three problems.

I'm not sold on increased security in our schools. I haven't been sold on it for a long time, and this recent article posted on The Conversation cemented that a bit more for me. But then what do we do? The article gives some ideas that I think are sound, but the main crux of it all is that our education system needs to work on addressing the underlying issues that may cause people to act in this violent way. They should be approaching it without firearms in mind, just in a way that looks at the students. More and more teens are facing issues of anxiety and depression, and we need to be looking at why and what we can do. Student centered solutions are going to help reduce school shootings, not firearm centered solutions.

As to overall firearm violence, I've offered some of my policy ideas before. I'd love to see us make an effort on this, but right now we are not going to see anything at the federal level, even though that it where it needs to take place. Lax gun laws in one state impact neighboring states. Illinois has tight gun laws but high gun violence. Why? Lax laws in neighboring states. When Missouri repealed their permit-to-purchase laws there was an influx of firearms from Missouri being used in crimes in Illinois (Webster, D., Crifasi, C. K., & Vernick, J. S., 2014, sorry I can't link this one, it's from the Journal of Urban Health if anyone can get access). I have been pushing for changes in Virginia because our laws impact Maryland, DC, and others in our area, but we need to be lobbying for policy solutions at the federal level. Not superficial things that make good talking points, we need evidence based solutions that will actually be a benefit. But that isn't what lawmakers are calling for.

The conversation tries hard to put all gun violence into one neat little box, but the truth is so much more complicated. There are related parts, but the causes are all different. We need to look at the causes if we are going to make any headway.

[Belsnickel]

(02-16-2018, 09:12 AM)6andcounting Wrote: I read this article a few days ago, and it's the perfect peace for this thread. The author is a former researcher at 538 who bought into the mass hysteria about the gun problem being mass shootings and demanded polices that curb mass shootings to lower gun crime. She is still largely against guns, but now she proposal public policies that address the root of gun crime.

https://archive.fo/XChCw

Yeah, she is spot on. I did a policy memo on gun violence over the summer and saw the same thing. I still advocate for certain measures regarding access to firearms, but most of them are surface level issues to help buy time until adequate research can be done to find policy solutions for a more holistic approach to solve the systemic issues that are the underlying causes. We have been stymieing research on this topic for a long time and that needs to end.

[*Nately120*]

People aren't really known for using actual evidence for the purpose of weighing fears. Plus, mass shootings have that sort of "It can happen to you, whether you deserve it or not" factor that really gets people emotionally charged. The numbers don't matter to most people, as evidenced by people who think being killed by a terrorist/mass shooter is a major risk in their lives, but they don't care about buckling their seatbelt, learning CPR, or knowing how to use a fire extinguisher IF they even own one, or something to that nature.

Anecdote time. In the late 2000's I had a gf who was one of those Bush and Palin republicans and we were walking about and we had been discussing terrorists and she went to walk out in front of a car that was supposed to stop at a stop sign and I grabbed the back of her shirt and the guy didn't end up stopping until halfway through the stop sign. I just said something to the tune of you worry about terrorists and I'll worry about people like that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-16-2018, 11:45 AM)Nately120 Wrote: People aren't really known for using actual evidence for the purpose of weighing fears.  Plus, mass shootings have that sort of "It can happen to you, whether you deserve it or not" factor that really gets people emotionally charged.  The numbers don't matter to most people, as evidenced by people who think being killed by a terrorist/mass shooter is a major risk in their lives, but they don't care about buckling their seatbelt, learning CPR, or knowing how to use a fire extinguisher IF they even own one, or something to that nature.

Most definitely.  You're far more likely yo be killed in a car accident or slipping in your bathroom than being killed by a firearm, much less in a mass shooting.

Quote:Anecdote time.  In the late 2000's I had a gf who was one of those Bush and Palin republicans and we were walking about and we had been discussing terrorists and she went to walk out in front of a car that was supposed to stop at a stop sign and I grabbed the back of her shirt and the guy didn't end up stopping until halfway through the stop sign.  I just said something to the tune of you worry about terrorists and I'll worry about people like that.

Excellent example.  Of the 12,000 or so homicides committed with a firearm around 60-70% (possibly more) of them are criminals killing other criminals.  This means that around 4,000 people per year, who are not engaged in criminal activity, are killed per year, in a nation of 330,000,000 who own collectively around as many firearms.  It's certainly no comfort to those killed, or their families, but most people shouldn't spend two seconds worrying about being shot.

[fredtoast]

(02-16-2018, 12:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Excellent example.  Of the 12,000 or so homicides committed with a firearm around 60-70% (possibly more) of them are criminals killing other criminals.  This means that around 4,000 people per year, who are not engaged in criminal activity, are killed per year, in a nation of 330,000,000 who own collectively around as many firearms.  It's certainly no comfort to those killed, or their families, but most people shouldn't spend two seconds worrying about being shot.

You can't just count homocides.  For every person killed by a gun there are 2 more who are shot. 

There are also multiple crimes where a gun is used but no one is shot.  There were over 120,000 armed robberies involving guns and thousands of more aggravated assaults and rapes were guns were used to threaten people.

I see alot of this spin from the NRA types who try so hard to diminish the amount of gun violence in America, but just to show how fair and balanced I am I will point out that many gun control advocates include the approximately 20K suicides committed with guns to inflate the number of "people killed by guns".