should we have kept iraqi oil

[Dill]

(01-26-2017, 10:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That quickly became an "OK, but...."

As it should have. 

Either your "Saddam was bad" point was offered to explain why the US has a claim on Iraqi oil, as if we had somehow rendered a service, or else you made a point that was beside the point.

[*bfine32*]

(01-26-2017, 10:01 PM)Dill Wrote: Sure Hitler was bad, but the US would not go to war against him--until HE DECLARED WAR ON THE U.S. on Dec. 11, 1941.

On that date, all Americans in Germany were arrested and Hitler immediately began to sink US shipping in the Atlantic.

You did not answer Benton's questions. No Americans were threatened by Saddam. The US had effective control of half his country through no fly zones and the Kurds controlled the north.

The stated reason for the invasion was to neutralize the imminent threat of WMDs.  Bush did not bring a white paper to Congress full of cooked intel about how Saddam oppressed his people when he wanted authorization for war. Powell did not go before the UN with photographs of Saddam hanging people to explain the US rationale to the world.

When the war went south and no WMDs were found, then the war became about the poor Iraqi people.

Some were fooled by the change in rationale. Others not.  

Outstanding use of the bold feature.

Any idea why Hitler DECLARED WAR ON THE U.S.? Were we just chillin' minding our own business or were we trying to be the world's police.

When did Germany invade the U.S.? (aka when were Americans threatened by Hitler?

The rest is just more hindsight and a declaration of how some (of course not the likes of you) were fooled. 

[*bfine32*]

(01-26-2017, 10:40 PM)Dill Wrote: As it should have. 

Either your "Saddam was bad" point was offered to explain why the US has a claim on Iraqi oil, as if we had somehow rendered a service, or else you made a point that was beside the point.

Of course it rendered a service it removed a tyrant that was committing crimes against humanity in his own country against his own countrymen


Let me guess......"Ok, but...."

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-26-2017, 08:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Dang you ask a lot of questions when one gets answered but I will try:

Snark.

Quote:I don't know the numbers of Americans threatened by Saddam Hussan, but I'll put it at a few

More snark.

Quote:Their leader committing crimes against humanity,

True.

Quote:we are not responsible for the increased extremism

Completely false.  The Army's own intel reports indicate Saddam was not providing safe haven to Al-Qaeda as we alleged and that Al-Qaeda in Iraq (not to be confused with the larger umbrella organization, Al-Qaeda) was the result of our invasion of Iraq.

Quote:Saddam Hussan invited us with his repeated crimes;

There are other countries which commit(ted) crimes against humanity, but we didn't invaded them.  Rwanda, for instance.  Why haven't we invaded Rwanda to stop the crimes against humanity committed there?  Because our national security isn't threatened by the war crimes commited in Rwanda.

Quote:I'm not sure they actually have an invitation committee

More snark.

Quote:I'm not sure if you are talking about Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom when asking why did we stop; you're kind of inter-mingling them here

Finally, a valid point which isn't a snarky comment or completely false.

Quote:We don't invade all countries because sanctions are perhaps more effective on poorer countries

At best, this comment is merely disingenuous (and I hate that god damn word, but I'm forced to use it in this case.)

Quote:I think I got them all. 

The snarky cherry on top is a nice touch.

[Rotobeast]

(01-26-2017, 06:20 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Did Colin Powell brief the UN on any of these as a reason to invade Iraq?

No.... he walked in with a throbbing erection, proclaiming "this is for Iraq, unless any of you wish an attempt to sate it ? OK !! Then go moisten up the cradle of humanity, cause Big Daddy Powell is going to rock it !".

True story....

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-26-2017, 08:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Being the world's police is not a new job to us; we've done is for decades and unfortunately you are correct; there is a lot of work to do. Perhaps it would be best if we turned to isolation. 

No one here has suggested isolationism as an alternative except you.  With that being said, maybe we shouldn't make up lies as a pretext to invade other countries?  And when we do, hopefully we can admit our mistake, learn from it, and avoid revising history with more bullshit to rationalize our bullshit lies so we don't make the same mistake again.

Quote:Oh and I answered the original question in my earlier post: To remove a leader that was committing crimes against humanity in his country.

Your answer is completely false.  You provided a list of crimes against humanity which spanned decades.  Saddam would still be in Iraq, still committing more crimes, if it hadn't been for our false allegations he was actively pursuing clandestine WMD programs and providing safe haven to Al-Qaeda IOT carry out attacks against the US and US citizens around the globe which presented a danger to our national security and our citizens.  The threat to the US was the justification for the invasion.

Let me be perfectly clear, we invaded Iraq for our own security, not the security of Iraqi citizens.  You know this or at the very least you should know; which means you are feigning ignorance or you are ignorant.  I take a lot of pride in being a former NCO and it is disappointing to see a fellow former NCO act the way you are.

Quote:Your question is sort of like: Sure Hitler was bad but why did we invade Germany.

German Declaration of War against the United States, December 11th, 1941

We invaded Germany to put an end to WWII after Germany declared war on the US.  

Who is guilty of blatant partisanship now?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-26-2017, 10:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks are tripping over themselves sharing their canned responses

Canned response kettle . . .

(01-26-2017, 07:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not sure; however, that has nothing to do with the fact that he committed those and countless other atrocities and we removed him from power in an effort to help the citizens of Iraq; as opposed to the snarky arm-chair reason provided.

. . . meet canned response pot.

Quote:about why the invasion of Iraq was bad and in hindsight most agree that it was. However the question was asked why should/would we keep the oil and an "answer" of because we "destroyed" their country was given. I simply provided the reason that we did remove a letter from a country that was committing crimes against humanities. That quickly became an "OK, but...."

You provided a canned response which is a misrespresentation of the what actually happened on a Trumpian scale.

[Dill]

(01-26-2017, 10:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Any idea why Hitler DECLARED WAR ON THE U.S.? Were we just chillin' minding our own business or were we trying to be the world's police.

When did Germany invade the U.S.? (aka when were Americans threatened by Hitler?

The rest is just more hindsight and a declaration of how some (of course not the likes of you) were fooled. 

It is the Trump era now, so I am not surprised that his defenders may bring alternative hindsight to historical discussions.

In 1940, the US Army numbered about 109,000 men. By the end of '41, it had been boosted to 900,000--all still in the US. Plus 54,00 Marines on the West Coast and some Pacific Islands. The navy had a few bases abroad in US possessions like the Philippines, the Caribbean and Central America. The German army numbered over three million in 41, with superior equipment and training.

With a minimal army and navy and little ability to project force, the US was neither able to be nor acting as the world's police in 1941.

Germans "threatened" Americans the day they declared war. As I said above.

Germany put six submarines off the US east coast in January of '42, less than a month after the declaration.  Within a month they sank 159,000 tons of US shipping.  Hundreds of US sailor citizens were killed before the US had attacked any German possession. 

So that is when Americans were threatened by Hitler.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-26-2017, 10:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Outstanding use of the bold feature.

Any idea why Hitler DECLARED WAR ON THE U.S.? Were we just chillin' minding our own business or were we trying to be the world's police.

When did Germany invade the U.S.? (aka when were Americans threatened by Hitler?

The rest is just more hindsight and a declaration of how some (of course not the likes of you) were fooled. 

Every American was threatened by Hitler when he declared war on the US four days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Japan, on of Germany's Axis allies.

Wow, you've taken your trolling to a whole new level.  Maybe this year you will finally make that elusive first Troll Bowl.  I'll vote for you.

[*bfine32*]

(01-26-2017, 11:59 PM)Dill Wrote: It is the Trump era now, so I am not surprised that his defenders may bring alternative hindsight to historical discussions.

In 1940, the US Army numbered about 109,000 men. By the end of '41, it had been boosted to 900,000--all still in the US. Plus 54,00 Marines on the West Coast and some Pacific Islands. The navy had a few bases abroad in US possessions like the Philippines, the Caribbean and Central America. The German army numbered over three million in 41, with superior equipment and training.

With a minimal army and navy and little ability to project force, the US was neither able to be nor acting as the world's police in 1941.

Germans "threatened" Americans the day they declared war. As I said above.

Germany put six submarines off the US east coast in January of '42, less than a month after the declaration.  Within a month they sank 159,000 tons of US shipping.  Hundreds of US sailor citizens were killed before the US had attacked any German possession. 

So that is when Americans were threatened by Hitler.

All that and you didn't answer the simple 8 word question at the beginning of the post. 

It's good to know (aka google) stuff, but it is better when that stuff is used to answer a question posed. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-26-2017, 10:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course it rendered a service it removed a tyrant that was committing crimes against humanity in his own country against his own countrymen


Let me guess......"Ok, but...."

Post # 8

(01-26-2017, 03:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: We invaded Iraq for our national security issues.

Let me guess . . . "Ok, but...." Post # 12

(01-26-2017, 03:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Saddam Hussein was hanged for ordering the deaths of 148 Shiite men and boys in the village of Dujail after an assassination attempt there in 1982. But by the standards of his brutal rule, the Dujail killings were a relatively minor crime.


The exact number of deaths attributable to Saddam Hussein may never be known, but estimates range as high as half a million. There is evidence of more than 250 mass graves dating to his rule.

Following is a list of other crimes Saddam is accused of. The most notorious is his genocidal campaign against the Kurds in the north. The trial for those murders, and for others, will now continue with the remaining defendants.


1974 -- Dawa Killings

Five leaders of the Shiite Islamic Dawa Party were sentenced to death and killed as Saddam consolidated his power. In 2004, those murders were among many charges announced against Saddam. The U.S. State Department estimates thousands of Saddam's political rivals were killed.


1980 -- Fayli Deportations and Killings

Thousands of Kurds of the Fayli sect were persecuted. Some were expelled to Iran, others killed. Saddam thought of them as Iranian, and therefore as enemies. Fayli women were often imprisoned or put into camps.


1983 -- Barzani Abductions

After the Iraqi-based Kurdistan Democratic Party allied with Iran during the Iran-Iraq War, Saddam sought to punish the clan and its leader, Massoud Barzani. More than 5,000 males, some as young as 10, disappeared. Decades later the remains of 512 Barzani men were discovered in a mass grave. They were reinterred in 2005. A letter that shows Saddam's direct involvement in the crimes was discovered in Baghdad.


1988 -- Al-Anfal Campaign

From February to September 1988, Saddam conducted what has been called a genocidal campaign against the Kurdish population. Gen. Ali Hassan al-Majid, or "Chemical Ali," Saddam's cousin, carried out the Al-Anfal operation using chemical weapons. Human Rights Watch estimates between 50,000 and 100,000 died. Kurdish officials and some international human rights groups put the number killed as high as 182,000. Saddam was on trial for the Anfal campaign at the time of his execution. Six defendants remain in the Al-Anfal case, including "Chemical Ali," who is facing charges of genocide.


1988 -- Halabja Gassing

During the Anfal campaign, "Chemical Ali" ordered an attack against civilians in the town of Halabja. Iraqi forces dropped bombs containing mustard and nerve gases. An estimated 5,000 men, women and children died in a single day. Many more died from long-term medical problems, and birth defects are still common in the area.


1990s -- Marsh Arabs Devastated

Saddam attacked the Shiite "Marsh Arabs" by destroying their land. Once a significant wetland, the marshes in southern Iraq were devastated by a government drainage plan that left behind a wasteland. In 1991, 250,000 Marsh Arabs lived in the region. Now 90 percent of the area is in ruins and only an estimated 20,000 people remain. Tens of thousands live in refugee camps in Iran. Efforts are now underway to restore the marshes. Human Rights Watch calls the campaign against the Marsh Arabs a crime against humanity and other rights activists call it genocide. There are claims chemical weapons also were used.


1990 -- Invasion of Kuwait

In August of 1990, Saddam ordered the Iraqi military, the fourth largest military in the world at the time, to invade Kuwait, leading to the 1991 Gulf War. Iraqi soldiers are accused of torturing and executing hundreds of Kuwaitis, as well as taking hostages and looting. More than 700 oil wells were set on fire and pipelines opened, spilling oil into the Gulf.


1991 -- Kurdish and Shiite Rebellions

After heeding President George H.W. Bush's call to rebel against Saddam, Shiites and Kurds were crushed by immense Iraqi military force. Saddam turned his military against the people as part of his widespread crackdown after the war. The rebels thought they would have the backing of the U.S. military. Thousands have been discovered in mass graves.


1999 -- Al-Sadr Assassination

Ayatollah Muhammed al-Sadr, father of prominent Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, and two of his sons were assassinated in 1999. Al-Sadr was a well-liked Shiite leader, and his death spawned Shiite uprisings in Baghdad. As he had previously, Saddam cracked down on the rebellion and hundreds were killed.

In a statement responding to the execution, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki said, "Let the families of Iraqi martyrs killed in mass graves, Anfal, Halabja or those executed in the cells of the dead regime be happy. The mothers, orphans and widows should celebrate the death of the buried dictator."

You've got it bass ackwards as usual, homey.

[*bfine32*]

(01-26-2017, 11:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Every American was threatened by Hitler when he declared war on the US four days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Japan, on of Germany's Axis allies.

Wow, you've taken your trolling to a whole new level.  Maybe this year you will finally make that elusive first Troll Bowl.  I'll vote for you.

Is this for real "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor"?

I'm sorry, but that is the most hilarious thing I've read in this forum, but you would have had to have watched Animal House to be shedding tears of laughter as I am now. 

Thanks for your vote; perhaps you'll back a winner this time. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-27-2017, 12:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Is this for real "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor"?

I'm sorry, but that is the most hilarious thing I've read in this forum, but you would have had to have watched Animal House to be shedding tears of laughter as I am now. 

Thanks for your vote; perhaps you'll back a winner this time. 

"he declared war on the US four days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Japan, on of Germany's Axis allies."


No, it's not the real, "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor."  But, the fact you misunderstood what I wrote so horribly is sad.  The funny part is you have aligned yourself into defending the actions of the Axis powers.  I guess whoring yourself out to the enemy is more palatable to you now that our President is taking it in the ass from Putin.

[Dill]

(01-27-2017, 12:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: All that and you didn't answer the simple 8 word question at the beginning of the post. 

It's good to know (aka google) stuff, but it is better when that stuff is used to answer a question posed. 

You posed two options in answer to your own question of why Hitler declared war--were we "chillin" or trying to be the world's police?

The "google stuff" establishes why the US was not acting and could not act as the world police, during or before 1941. Ergo, US "world policing" neither caused Hitler to declare war nor motivated the US to invade Germany.

And then I answered this question:


>>When did Germany invade the U.S.? (aka when were Americans threatened by Hitler?<<

And we went down this track because of your analogy between the invasion of Nazi Germany and that of Iraq--"Your question is sort of like: Sure Hitler was bad but why did we invade Germany." 

As if we invaded Germany because Hitler was bad. Just being world police.

And so we invaded Iraq to help the Iraqi's people, like we invaded Germany to help the German people.

Finally, while we are on the subject of answering questions, that long list of Saddam atrocities, which I presume was Googled, did not answer the question of why the US invaded Iraq. As Oncemore and others have noted, the US had little to say against Saddam when he was our Bulwark against Iran. Suddenly you would have us believe that we invaded Iraq because Saddam was bad in the 1980s, and not for the reasons officially given by the Administration to Congress and the UN in 2002-03.

Google is little help if you don't already know your history.

[*bfine32*]

(01-27-2017, 02:21 AM)Dill Wrote: You posed two options in answer to your own question of why Hitler declared war--were we "chillin" or trying to be the world's police?

The "google stuff" establishes why the US was not acting and could not act as the world police, during or before 1941. Ergo, US "world policing" neither caused Hitler to declare war nor motivated the US to invade Germany.

And then I answered this question:


>>When did Germany invade the U.S.? (aka when were Americans threatened by Hitler?<<

And we went down this track because of your analogy between the invasion of Nazi Germany and that of Iraq--"Your question is sort of like: Sure Hitler was bad but why did we invade Germany." 

As if we invaded Germany because Hitler was bad. Just being world police.

And so we invaded Iraq to help the Iraqi's people, like we invaded Germany to help the German people.

Finally, while we are on the subject of answering questions, that long list of Saddam atrocities, which I presume was Googled, did not answer the question of why the US invaded Iraq. As Oncemore and others have noted, the US had little to say against Saddam when he was our Bulwark against Iran. Suddenly you would have us believe that we invaded Iraq because Saddam was bad in the 1980s, and not for the reasons officially given by the Administration to Congress and the UN in 2002-03.

Google is little help if you don't already know your history.

I can only assume we speak different languages. The question was quite simple. Here it is:

Any idea why Hitler DECLARED WAR ON THE U.S.? 


You seem to have all the answers to questions no one is asking; perhaps you can share the history you already know and answer the question asked. I doubt you will, but who knows. 

[Dill]

(01-27-2017, 02:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I can only assume we speak different languages. The question was quite simple. Here it is:

Any idea why Hitler DECLARED WAR ON THE U.S.? 

You seem to have all the answers to questions no one is asking; perhaps you can share the history you already know and answer the question asked. I doubt you will, but who knows. 

So now you are asking the question without the tacked on options. Suddenly "quite simple" with no reference to world policing.

But let's pretend you were just asking the "simple" version and no one has answered.

The reasons Hitler gave for the declaration were-- 

The US was supplying the UK, lending it money and ships, and using destroyers to protect US shipping to Europe against German submarines. He also complained of the US seizing German ships--perhaps a reference to ONE SHIP, a merchant flying the US flag, for violating the espionage act.

Trump-like, he blamed the Americans for defending their own convoys against German Wolfpacks, exaggerated defensive threats, wholly imagined others, portrayed Roosevelt as dependent upon his wife, while emphasizing the amazing world historical importance of his own term in office and his decision to declare war--HUGE! Had Gallup been up and running in Germany then he'd have quoted the polls in support of his actions.

In Hitler's view, the US was certainly "world policing." However, no one since has agreed with that except . . . . wait. . . what prompted you to link Hitler and Saddam via the notion of the US as "world police"? Have you been reading some interesting websites about what "really" happened in WW2?

[*bfine32*]

(01-27-2017, 03:06 AM)Dill Wrote: So now you are asking the question without the tacked on options. Suddenly "quite simple" with no reference to world policing.

But let's pretend you were just asking the "simple" version. The reasons Hitler gave for the declaration were-- 

The US was supplying the UK, lending it money ships, and using destroyers to protect US shipping to Europe against German submarines. He also complained of the US seizing German ships--perhaps a reference to ONE SHIP, a merchant flying the US flag, for violating the espionage act.

Trump-like, he blamed the Americans for defending their own convoys against German Wolfpacks, portrayed Roosevelt as dependent upon his wife, while emphasizing the amazing world historical importance of his own term in office and his decision to declare war--HUGE!

Surprisingly the same question asked the 3rd time is simpler; although the words have never changed. Just as surprisingly is your sudden limited knowledge of history as to why Germany would declare war on America. I can share with you many other reasons that Germany declared war on US if you are fuzzy. 

[Griever]

(01-26-2017, 09:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Speak for yourself..

I have a "safe space", it's called my home, the one that I work hard to pay for. 

As for endorsement of "Nazi", the Left seems to be the ones attempting to embrace Islam.  You know, the culture that endorses repression of women, persecution of gays, and anyone else that does not agree with their ways.

dont pretend like you care about any of that

women shouldnt think for themselves, them gays and their evil gay agenda

[Griever]

(01-27-2017, 12:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Is this for real "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor"?

I'm sorry, but that is the most hilarious thing I've read in this forum, but you would have had to have watched Animal House to be shedding tears of laughter as I am now. 

Thanks for your vote; perhaps you'll back a winner this time. 

reading is hard, isnt it?

[Dill]

(01-27-2017, 03:18 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Surprisingly the same question asked the 3rd time is simpler; although the words have never changed. Just as surprisingly is your sudden limited knowledge of history as to why Germany would declare war on America. I can share with you many other reasons that Germany declared war on US if you are fuzzy. 

I'm fuzzy. Let's hear them.