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Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Derrick - 01-24-2017
From Cincy Jungle:
It’s no secret that the Bengals are slow-movers in free agency. After getting burned by questionable decisions, in one form or another both during and before the Marvin Lewis era, the Bengals have preferred to rely on the NFL Draft process to build their roster.
One could look back at a number of free agency decisions the Bengals have made of late and gain disbelief. One of the higher-profile signings they made recently was in the 2013 offseason signing of James Harrison and it came with mixed results.
In the HBO documentary, “Hard Knocks”, fans got an up-close look at the highly-intense Harrison and his now-famous workout regimen. On the surface, it seemed like a typical Mike Brown move: a high-profile star at the end of his career, who could be had on the cheap. Harrison had some things to prove though, and while his statistics weren’t gaudy with the Bengals, he showed enough to be picked up by the Steelers for the three seasons that followed, first on a one-year deal and then a two-year extension. He’s a free agent in 2017 but he says he wants to return to the Steelers next season at the age of 38 to play his 15th season in the NFL. You’d have to assume the Steelers are interested in having him back.
Now, on the surface, the Harrison signing made a ton of sense for the Bengals. Obviously, his tenacity and experience in the postseason seemed to be a good fit in Cincinnati’s locker room. However, it just wasn’t the boost the Bengals seemed to need, as they once again lost in the first round of the playoffs—that time to the Chargers at home. In his one year with the Bengals, Harrison had one of the worst years of his career. He recorded 30 tackles, 2.0 sacks, 1 interception and 1 pass defended. Since he's returned to the Steelers, he's had no fewer than 40 tackles and 5.0 sacks per season. This season, he had 53 tackles, 5.0 sacks, 1 pass defended and 1 interception. Maybe he was just never that interested in playing for his former and now again rival in Cincinnati.
What went wrong and lessons learned:
A frustrating issue with the Bengals, both in the draft and in free agency, is in their inability to use certain players to their respective strengths. Harrison’s stint with the Bengals seems to be a prime case study.
In his 13 successful seasons with the Steelers, Harrison has made a Hall of Fame-like career as an edge rusher. He’s averaged almost six quarterback sacks per season, and even though it doesn’t sound like much, four of those years were with Harrison clamoring for an actual NFL role in his early years. However, aside from his first couple of seasons with limited snaps, his two sacks with the Bengals in 2013 were the fewest of any significant season he spent with the Steelers.
The issue here is the Bengals attempting to put a round peg in a square hole. Cincinnati has long-employed a 4-3 or nickel look for their defense, and, simply put, Harrison’s role as a strong-side linebacker in that scheme just didn’t fit.
This year, the Bengals need to make moves, but they need to be savvy with them. While Harrison was a shot in the arm from an attitude perspective, he still only had two sacks and 30 total tackles. Since his return to Pittsburgh, Harrison has had 20 sacks, including some impressive postseason performances, including a great game against the Chiefs in the Divisional Round this year.
Part of the reason the Bengals like to re-sign their own players in free agency is because they know how they fit into their systems. Unfortunately, many outsiders they bring in and newbies from the draft have disappointed because they aren’t being used to their respective strengths.
That needs to change in a big way this offseason if the Bengals are to make a turnaround and get back to the postseason in 2017.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Shake n Blake - 01-24-2017
The Bengals seem to get scared off from their own bad moves. For example, they sign an aging Lavernues Coles and an injury ravaged Antonio Bryant. They don't sign a WR of note again (LaFell) until they absolutely had to...6 years after their last decent FA WR. They need to stop being scared, stop bargain shopping 100% of the time, and just make some sound moves.
It might be moot point now though. Not only is this core of players aging, we're also still stuck with Marvin. I don't think a couple smart mid-tier signings is going to get this team over the hump.
Just for fun, here's some other big FA flops:
Ben Utecht
Antwan Odom
Sam Adams
Jason Allen
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Karlos Dansby
I'm sure there's many more. Lots of these guys were bargain finds. Some were just dumb signings. Odom was just a cheaper replacement for Justin Smith. Mike Brown just hates free agents. Draft picks are cheaper.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - TheLeonardLeap - 01-24-2017
The only way James Harrison gets into the HoF is because he played for the Steelers. There are currently 10 active players with more sacks than him (plus one tied in almost half the years), and I am pretty sure at least 75% of them are less overloaded on steroids to make their career start.
Active:
Julius Peppers- 143.5
DeMarcus Ware- 138.5
Jared Allen- 136.0
Robert Mathis- 123.0
Dwight Freeney- 122.5
Terrell Suggs- 114.5
Elvis Dumervil- 99.0
Mario Williams- 97.5
Trent Cole- 90.5
Tamba Hali- 89.5
Cameron Wake- 81.5 (8 years)
James Harrison- 81.5 (15 years)
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Shake n Blake - 01-24-2017
(01-24-2017, 10:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The only way James Harrison gets into the HoF is because he played for the Steelers. There are currently 10 active players with more sacks than him (plus one tied in almost half the years), and I am pretty sure at least 75% of them are less overloaded on steroids to make their career start.
Active:
Julius Peppers- 143.5
DeMarcus Ware- 138.5
Jared Allen- 136.0
Robert Mathis- 123.0
Dwight Freeney- 122.5
Terrell Suggs- 114.5
Elvis Dumervil- 99.0
Mario Williams- 97.5
Trent Cole- 90.5
Tamba Hali- 89.5
Cameron Wake- 81.5 (8 years)
James Harrison- 81.5 (15 years)
Yeah Harrison is taking a page from Bettis and Ward.
It seems any "good not great" Steelers player can get HOF consideration if they hang around and pad their stats enough. As you point out, his career stats still ain't all that, but I'm sure he'll still get mention at the very least.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - BengalChris - 01-24-2017
It all comes down to evaluation and Mikey Brown's insistence on only shopping the bargain bin.
There's so much film on these veteran players that I personally don't understand how the team can't sign top players and have confidence in those signings.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - wolfkaosaun - 01-24-2017
(01-24-2017, 08:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals seem to get scared off from their own bad moves. For example, they sign an aging Lavernues Coles and an injury ravaged Antonio Bryant. They don't sign a WR of note again (LaFell) until they absolutely had to...6 years after their last decent FA WR. They need to stop being scared, stop bargain shopping 100% of the time, and just make some sound moves.
It might be moot point now though. Not only is this core of players aging, we're also still stuck with Marvin. I don't think a couple smart mid-tier signings is going to get this team over the hump.
Just for fun, here's some other big FA flops:
Ben Utecht (29)
Antwan Odom (28, turned 29 later in September)
Sam Adams (33)
Jason Allen (29)
AJ Hawk (31)
Travelle Wharton (31)
Karlos Dansby (34, turned 35 in November)
I'm sure there's many more. Lots of these guys were bargain finds. Some were just dumb signings. Odom was just a cheaper replacement for Justin Smith. Mike Brown just hates free agents. Draft picks are cheaper.
Granted, there have been losses, we've also had decent ones.
Deltha O'Neal had some pretty good years here. Especially 2004 and 2005. Then he started to age, but those 2 years he was really good.
Tory James was on the back end of his career, but also had some good years here.
Dexter Jackson wasn't a bad pickup either. Very solid during his time here.
Odom could have done very well. Sadly, he was tore his ACL. Through 18 games with us he had 11 sacks.
But, I also added the age of everyone that you mentioned. That's how old they were.
4 of the 7 you named were at least 31 years old. Including Harrison, who was 35, that gives us 5 out of 8.
I'll give them credit on trying with some of these guys such as Odom and utecht. But the rest were past their prime and added little to nothing.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Hammerstripes - 01-24-2017
The real problem with free agency these days is the new cap rules. Since teams HAVE to spend up to a certain amount, the contracts are getting out of hand.
A "decent" corner is getting $10 million per year now. I don't blame teams for not spending in free agency these days.
On another note, it's too bad that injuries hampered some of those signings. Odom was an impact guy for us and there's no doubt in my mind that Utecht and Wharton would have been good fits.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - THE PISTONS - 01-24-2017
Harrison actually played fairly well here...in extremely limited snaps.
I wouldn't exactly say they were burned by him. He signed a 1 year low dollar deal. It's not like they signed him for $10 million a year.
The Bengals do tend to not be good at selecting guys that fit their system.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Hammerstripes - 01-24-2017
(01-24-2017, 11:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Harrison actually played fairly well here...in extremely limited snaps.
I wouldn't exactly say they were burned by him. He signed a 1 year low dollar deal. It's not like they signed him for $10 million a year.
The Bengals do tend to not be good at selecting guys that fit their system.
Harrison was a TERRIBLE fit in this system.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - THE PISTONS - 01-25-2017
(01-24-2017, 11:51 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Harrison was a TERRIBLE fit in this system.
He basically rushed the passer in Pittsburgh and they tried using him as an OLB here to cover TE's.
Interestingly enough they could have signed Dansby at that time...but he wanted more money so they chose the bad fit that was cheaper. Our deficiency was covering TE's and Dansby could do that at the time.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Yojimbo - 01-25-2017
(01-24-2017, 08:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals seem to get scared off from their own bad moves. For example, they sign an aging Lavernues Coles and an injury ravaged Antonio Bryant. They don't sign a WR of note again (LaFell) until they absolutely had to...6 years after their last decent FA WR. They need to stop being scared, stop bargain shopping 100% of the time, and just make some sound moves.
It might be moot point now though. Not only is this core of players aging, we're also still stuck with Marvin. I don't think a couple smart mid-tier signings is going to get this team over the hump.
Just for fun, here's some other big FA flops:
Ben Utecht
Antwan Odom
Sam Adams
Jason Allen
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Karlos Dansby
I'm sure there's many more. Lots of these guys were bargain finds. Some were just dumb signings. Odom was just a cheaper replacement for Justin Smith. Mike Brown just hates free agents. Draft picks are cheaper.
Can't predict injuries.
Utecht - injury
Odom - injury
Wharton - injury
Adams, Hawk and Dansby were just over the hill.
Allen was never a big signing because he was never good due to the knee injury he suffered in college.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Shake n Blake - 01-25-2017
(01-25-2017, 12:06 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: Can't predict injuries.
Utecht - injury
Odom - injury
Wharton - injury
Adams, Hawk and Dansby were just over the hill.
Allen was never a big signing because he was never good due to the knee injury he suffered in college.
Meh. Even if you offer up mulligans for the injured guys (Odom wasn't good prior to injury, aside from his 5 sack game against a backup), the track record is still weak. They basically get what they've paid for.
All the over the hill guys are part of my point with bargain shopping. Jason Allen got a 2 year, 9 million dollar contract...which is a big signing by Bengals standards and a lot of money on a bum.
My point is that they bargain shop, and on the rare occasion they spend half decent money, it's rarely on a worthy player. Then it seems their own poor choices cause them to be even more gun shy in FA.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - bengalsturntup926 - 01-25-2017
I definitely agree, we always sucked in free agency, but I disagree on Odom, he really was a big player for us in 2009,when he went down for us, it changed our defense. Losing him and Henry that year, hurt us bad, that could of been a suoerbowl team without the injuries we had. The jets went on to the afc championship. If we had Odom and Henry we would of probably beat the jets.
With that said yes, I'm sick and tired of taking bad fits or over the hill guys and playing them over rookies. Pittsburgh don't even do that, neither does new England.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - ochocincos - 01-25-2017
(01-24-2017, 08:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals seem to get scared off from their own bad moves. For example, they sign an aging Lavernues Coles and an injury ravaged Antonio Bryant. They don't sign a WR of note again (LaFell) until they absolutely had to...6 years after their last decent FA WR. They need to stop being scared, stop bargain shopping 100% of the time, and just make some sound moves.
It might be moot point now though. Not only is this core of players aging, we're also still stuck with Marvin. I don't think a couple smart mid-tier signings is going to get this team over the hump.
Just for fun, here's some other big FA flops:
Ben Utecht
Antwan Odom
Sam Adams
Jason Allen
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Karlos Dansby
I'm sure there's many more. Lots of these guys were bargain finds. Some were just dumb signings. Odom was just a cheaper replacement for Justin Smith. Mike Brown just hates free agents. Draft picks are cheaper.
The bolded hits the nail on the head. The Bengals lack confidence. Whether that's in signing FAs they KNOW will be key contributors, making draft selections they KNOW will become good players, or even having the confidence to win/close out big games.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - THE PISTONS - 01-25-2017
(01-25-2017, 02:13 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Meh. Even if you offer up mulligans for the injured guys (Odom wasn't good prior to injury, aside from his 5 sack game against a backup), the track record is still weak. They basically get what they've paid for.
All the over the hill guys are part of my point with bargain shopping. Jason Allen got a 2 year, 9 million dollar contract...which is a big signing by Bengals standards and a lot of money on a bum.
My point is that they bargain shop, and on the rare occasion they spend half decent money, it's rarely on a worthy player. Then it seems their own poor choices cause them to be even more gun shy in FA.
Yep...and it could be extrapolated out that even though they bargain shop...they are overpaying for the performances that they receive.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Shake n Blake - 01-25-2017
(01-25-2017, 11:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep...and it could be extrapolated out that even though they bargain shop...they are overpaying for the performances that they receive.
Right. Some of the guys they've allowed to have prominent roles (BJGE, Hawk, Dansby etc) have been sub replacement level, which actually hurts us on the field.
And yeah, I said BJGE. Loved the dude as a person, but as a starting NFL RB, he sucked.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - THE PISTONS - 01-25-2017
(01-25-2017, 02:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Right. Some of the guys they've allowed to have prominent roles (BJGE, Hawk, Dansby etc) have been sub replacement level, which actually hurts us on the field.
And yeah, I said BJGE. Loved the dude as a person, but as a starting NFL RB, he sucked.
But he NEVER fumbles! Until he got here and had to carry a football that wasn't deflated!
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Shake n Blake - 01-25-2017
(01-25-2017, 02:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: But he NEVER fumbles! Until he got here and had to carry a football that wasn't deflated!
When deflategate first happened, my first thought was Benny fumbling 2-3 times in like his 2nd game in stripes.
I was all like "ohhh..."
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - BengalFanInNJ - 01-25-2017
Free agency should be used to fill hole(s) when you are one or two players away from making a Super Bowl run. The best case is when you have a need and there's a good to very good player coming off his rookie contract. He's still young and has proven to be successful. He doesn't have to be a huge name though.
They signed some second-tier guys who ended up being solid. Oliver Gibson, John Thornton and Bobbie Williams come to mind. They weren't great, but did contribute.
The Bengals missed out on what I believed to be a "perfect scenario" when they didn't try to sign Alex Mack. Center was a glaring need, Mack was available AND he played in the division. Any time you can improve your team AND weaken a division rival is a win-win. Look, Leveon Bell is not leaving the Steelers but can you imagine if he did and played for the Bengals? Same thing with Antonio Brown and Terrelle Suggs. The Browns did this with Eric Steinbach and ended up having a damn good line even though the team wasn't that great.
RE: Bengaly are FA once bit, twice shy - Rattler - 01-25-2017
Bengals are as tight as Mike Brown's ass.
We watched Sanu, Jones and Nelson walk and all three found their way to the playoffs
and in Sanu's case, the Super Bowl.
If we're not going to pay to retain our celebrated core, then replace clear talent with like.
Go cheap, get cheap.