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Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? (/Thread-Does-Lying-Matter-If-So-How-Much) Pages:
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Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - xxlt - 02-01-2017 Found this here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sam-waterston-the-danger-of-trumps-constant-lying/2017/01/30/71f76e2e-e72a-11e6-80c2-30e57e57e05d_story.html?utm_term=.b8a8cc495a39 By Sam Waterston January 30 at 7:22 PM Sam Waterston is a stage, film and television actor and serves on the board of Oceana and the emeritus board of Refugees International. “[No man has the] right to mislead others, who have less access to history, and less leisure to study it. . . . Thus substituting falsehood and deception for truthful evidence and fair argument.” ADVERTISING — Abraham Lincoln, “Cooper Union Address,” 1860 You may know me as an actor. I’m also a longtime supporter of election reform and opponent of partisanship. In 1999 I gave a talk at one of the last bipartisan congressional retreats, using what I had learned preparing to play Abraham Lincoln to warn against faction, partisanship’s original name. The founders knew partisanship to be one of the few things powerful enough to destroy the great American democratic experiment. I had some great quotes. John Hume, a Nobel laureate for his work to bring peace in Northern Ireland, spoke before me. His experience made searing testimony. We did our best. It seems it didn’t work. Until 2008, when an effort called Unity08, led by Democrat Gerald Rafshoon and Republican Doug Bailey, to elect a bipartisan presidential ticket was defeated, I was a registered Independent. To vote for Barack Obama in the primary that year, I joined a party. Believing it to be the best use of what influence my career in show business might have, I’ve served, more or less quietly, for many years on the boards of Oceana and Refugees International. But working quietly doesn’t feel like an option now. This feels like an all-hands-on-deck moment. The great issue of today is lying — constant lying in public. Lying is the ally of faction and, since President Trump’s rise to power, it is the greater danger. Yes, the word is lying — not negotiation, salesmanship, bluster, attention-getting, delusion, deception, braggadocio, exaggeration, bullying, alternative facts, or any other euphemism. Once, President John F. Kennedy could say that our national problems were no longer ideological but technical. Lying on a grand scale has reversed that. And it’s hard to keep up. Trump has lied about climate change and the character and motives of refugees, about how asylum-seekers have been vetted in the past and how many have been able to enter the United States, about immigrants, and a long list of other matters. As with partisanship, the more lying there is, the worse it is. And Trump’s alternative facts have meant nasty real-world consequences. As lying comes easily to Trump, it should come first in every report about his administration. Trump doesn’t lie about this and that, and he doesn’t lie sometimes. He is a liar, a person who lies. This news should be reported everywhere. Politicians have lied before, but this is not an old problem getting worse. Indeed, past presidents have sometimes paid dearly for the mere appearance of a lie. A man of great good character and a lifetime of public service, President George H.W. Bush, said “Read my lips,” which was branded a lie, and he lost an election. Accusations of lying — “Lying Hillary” — tainted Hillary Clinton’s run for president. President Bill Clinton told a lie in public and under oath and the scandal got him impeached. The impeachment gained some weight from the sound legal principle that a liar in one thing is likely to lie about other things. That principle should be applied to Trump. By the frequency of his lying, Trump has revealed a truth we have avoided confronting: Like partisanship, regular and habitual lying is an existential threat to us, to our institutions, our memories, our understanding of now and of the future, to the great American democratic experiment, and to the planet. It blurs the truth, subverts trust, interferes with thought, and destroys clarity. It drives us to distraction. It’s impossible to overstate what is at stake. “I won,” says Trump truly, following it up with lies about landslides, voter fraud and crowd size. Every American should be alarmed. It ought to be the lead in every article about him and his administration, no matter the subject. Lying at this level is a threat to the Republic. ****************** So, is Sam right? Should Trump's lying be ignored? If so why? Should it be minimized? If so, why? Or should everyone focus in it like a laser beam? If so, why? RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - GMDino - 02-01-2017 Within the scope of Trump as an elected leader I feel the obvious lies are wrong. Some will argue that spin and slant are to be expected. I can't say that isn't true. But outright lies and exaggerations should be called out. And this was Trump's MO long before he ever thought about running for POTUS. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Belsnickel - 02-01-2017 So here is my rub with what we have seen going on. Any White House administration will have to be selective in the information they give. They will have to be strategic in what is revealed and when. In order to craft their message and deliver it effectively, there needs to be a trust between the administration, the media, and the people. Right now there is animosity between the media and the administration that gives the people no reason to truly trust either one of them. The lies, the spin, it's hard to wade through. The thing is that when an administration lies about the little things, like Trump has been doing, then why should we trust them on the big things? When something big is going on, and there inevitably will be something big, and the administration has to stand in front of the people and tell us what is going on, why should we believe them? You have to build up a trust with the people so when those difficult times come, you can rely on that. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - bfine32 - 02-01-2017 He sure does lie alot RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - GMDino - 02-01-2017 (02-01-2017, 12:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: He sure does lie alot Who? RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - CKwi88 - 02-01-2017 It matters if the other guys are doing it. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - bfine32 - 02-01-2017 (02-01-2017, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: Who? Well being as the title of the link in the OP reads Trump's constant lying; I'm gonna go with him. I keep forgetting that you require reasonable accomidation. I'll strive to be more obvious in the future for your sake. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - GMDino - 02-01-2017 (02-01-2017, 03:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well being as the title of the link in the OP reads Trump's constant lying; I'm gonna go with him. I keep forgetting that you require reasonable accomidation. I'll strive to be more obvious in the future for your sake. Oh, ok. Thought maybe you meant the xxlt since you didn't expand on that. Thanks. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - bfine32 - 02-01-2017 (02-01-2017, 03:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, ok. Thought maybe you meant the xxlt since you didn't expand on that. Thanks. No he's (OP) just real paranoid. But I think he's quite honest RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Dill - 02-01-2017 (02-01-2017, 09:35 AM)xxlt Wrote: “[No man has the] right to mislead others, who have less access to history, and less leisure to study it. . . . Thus substituting falsehood and deception for truthful evidence and fair argument.” I don't think H.W's "read my lips" was a lie. I think he meant it when he said it. Then months later he saw the country would have bigger problems if he didn't raise taxes, so he did what he thought was best for the country. Angry fanatics of his own party will call that a lie, of course. Clinton's lie about Monica was a lie. But I put it in a different category than lying about what special ops may actually be doing overseas or why voter ID laws are "necessary." Trump's lies are very serious but altogether different from anything we have seen before in a president. He appears to be "gaslighting" much of the time. As during the election, he now lies so frequently no one can keep up with him. Barely has one lie been vetted than another is out there sending Snopes and the NYT fact checkers into a frenzy. This is tremendously damaging to US politics and national security (and eventually, the economy), but the critical focus should not be primarily upon Trump. The lies only work for a segment of the population, and especially for members of one party. Remember that if you are even considering the question of Trump's lying, you are not in that segment. When Trump claimed thousands of New Jersey Muslims cheered as the twin towers went down, you didn't "remember" that along with him. When the P--grabbing video came out, you did not argue that Trump's actions were not sexual assault. When he claimed that over three million illegals voted in the last election, you did not buy in. When he calls the press "lying scum" who purvey "fake news," your attention is not deflected from the Fabricator-in-Chief. For me, the real question is where did that segment of voters come from, those who can be counted on to "buy in" to Trump's narrative? What produced them? What sustains their attraction to authoritarianism? That is really the source of the problem. It is they who floated the Trump presidency and will defend him for at least a few more months. (People who are now covered by the ACA but voted for Trump to get rid of Obamacare will eventually catch on--but not right away.) RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Millhouse - 02-01-2017 Well yeah it matters. It has helped countless number of politicians at all levels over the centuries to get into office and to screw over people to better themselves with money & power. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Nately120 - 02-01-2017 (02-01-2017, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: Who? Whoever Christine McVie was doffing when she wrote this....? RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Stewy - 02-02-2017 (02-01-2017, 10:20 AM)GMDino Wrote: Within the scope of Trump as an elected leader I feel the obvious lies are wrong. Slants and skews are still lying. The problem i the sheeple don't recognize rhetoric as lies. Just because Trumps lies are more obvious to the dumb, doesn't make it any less egregious. Politicians have been lying for the greater good and for their own benefit for 200+ years. But *SHOCK* and *AMAZEMENT* now we want to call out the president on it. Good luck on that front. Trump won't care. He's been lying for years, and been called out for it for years. He just shouts back all the louder with his big mouth, lying more or defaming his critics, and moves out by dismissing them. Calling out a politician and a known liar on his lying. lol Good luck. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - GMDino - 02-02-2017 (02-02-2017, 08:45 AM)Stewy Wrote: Slants and skews are still lying. The problem i the sheeple don't recognize rhetoric as lies. Just because Trumps lies are more obvious to the dumb, doesn't make it any less egregious. Politicians have been lying for the greater good and for their own benefit for 200+ years. But *SHOCK* and *AMAZEMENT* now we want to call out the president on it. Good luck on that front. Trump won't care. He's been lying for years, and been called out for it for years. He just shouts back all the louder with his big mouth, lying more or defaming his critics, and moves out by dismissing them. I think we always want to call the President out on it. That is the GOOD thing about the "party system". One side will always call out the other's lies. The issue becomes when it is or isn't a lie. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - GMDino - 02-05-2017 Nice article by a conservative...seriously. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/opinion/sunday/why-nobody-cares-the-president-is-lying.html?smid=fb-share&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com Quote:Why Nobody Cares the President Is Lying RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Dill - 02-05-2017 (02-02-2017, 08:45 AM)Stewy Wrote: Slants and skews are still lying. The problem i the sheeple don't recognize rhetoric as lies. Just because Trumps lies are more obvious to the dumb, doesn't make it any less egregious. Politicians have been lying for the greater good and for their own benefit for 200+ years. But *SHOCK* and *AMAZEMENT* now we want to call out the president on it. Good luck on that front. Trump won't care. He's been lying for years, and been called out for it for years. He just shouts back all the louder with his big mouth, lying more or defaming his critics, and moves out by dismissing them. Calling politicians to account is necessary in a Democracy. Claiming slants and skews are "still lying" just erases the distinction between Hitler and Lincoln. The press and people called out Nixon's lies and he resigned from office. That happened because people cared enough about truth, and because in this country presidents are not kings. But even Nixon knew the difference between rumor and vetted intel. The press and people are calling out Trump's lies as well, but the difference now is that a large enough segment of the population believes his lies to confound the accountability necessary for sound governance. So yes, we want to call every president on lying, and especially this one. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - Dill - 02-05-2017 (02-05-2017, 03:22 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nice article by a conservative...seriously. That is a good article. Thanks for posting it. It articulates the central problem of US politics at the moment. Though I would say it is not that there is not such thing a "facts" anymore, just that now there are "alternative facts" to give people the illusion that truth is a personal choice, and no one's truth is better than anyone else's. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - xxlt - 02-06-2017 (02-05-2017, 05:33 PM)Dill Wrote: That is a good article. Thanks for posting it. It articulates the central problem of US politics at the moment. My ignorance is as good as your intelligence, as Asimov put it. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - BoomerFan - 02-07-2017 I think I've seen this movie. Waterston re-unites with his old fried Trump but it ends terribly for Trump. :p But seriously, I think lying is an issue and we really should talk about who is credible and who isn't. I would love for kids to all have to take critical thinking classes while in school as understanding what makes for a credible source is very important. And I do think we should challenge people who are mendacious and spread lies. Assuming you are in an appropriate forum. I understand the concern of giving them an even bigger voice but the fact is, ignoring a lie won't make it go away. You should challenge lies when they are told regarding issues of consequence, such as holocaust denial, or else people will begin to believe those lies even more and they will spread. RE: Does Lying Matter? If So, How Much? - xxlt - 02-09-2017 (02-07-2017, 09:48 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: I think I've seen this movie. Waterston re-unites with his old fried Trump but it ends terribly for Trump. Heard a snippet of a nationally broadcast interview today where the host said, "Trump has repeatedly called Putin 'a good and strong leader." The Trump advocate/surrogate (not sure who the guy was, but clearly pro Tiger) said, "He never said that," about ten times. The host said, "I can play you 16 audio clips of Trump saying those exact words," and the response was, "Well, we will just have to agree to disagree." At this point, there should be someone who comes and puts you in a stockade and everyone throws vegetables at you. http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-strong-leader-obama-2016-9 So there ^ is a link from communist rag and suspect source "Business Insider," confirming on at least one occassion way back in September of last year Trump praised Putin as a strong leader, stronger than Obama. This search: Trump calls Putin a good leader returned over 20 million results, btw. Now I will say that if the interviewer can't produce 16 audio clips of unique occasions of Trump saying Putin is a good leader or a strong leader or a good and strong leader he should go in the stockades too. If he said it once, say he said it once, or better yet, just play the audio (one clip or sixteen) and then say, "Now, let's talk about why that is a problem or how it is making America grrrrrreat! again. I saw a lot of stuff about Trump explaining what he meant when he praised Putin on this (and/or other?) occasions. But the Trump supporter wasn't arguing what Trump meant. He denied that Trump ever called Putin a good leader or a strong leader or a good and strong leader. So, 100% he belongs in stockade. Trump apparently, according to video I saw of Trump himself explaining what he meant, didn't mean Putin was a strong leader when he called him that. What he meant was he is a colossal *****, just not as big a ***** as Obama, and that if Trump ever got into a position of power he would show you what a real stroing man looks like. And that is just grrrrrrreat! |