(08-15-2016, 04:17 PM)djam Wrote: Misguided and jaded? Yeah I was misguided back when my thinking was just like yours. I'm jaded from the failures of social programs that have wrecked our economy, and liberal/communist-like ideals that have divided people into class and race categories instead of uniting people under a freedom based live and let live banner like America was founded to be. One day a long time ago I stopped listening to what the bought and paid for, agenda-driven journalist and professors were saying and started researching for myself --history of policy and results thereof. It was not very hard to really get a look into the rest of the world either, considering I lived part of my life in China when I was younger, and my parents work took them all over the world most of my life. Socialism is a failure on almost every level. Doesnt matter how much you try to church it up, stealing from people to pay for others diminishes motivation, and hinders greatness, creativity and individualism. It has never worked out for anyone, and the countries Bernie and his band of clueless supporters try to use as a examples have struggled very badly, so they make excuses that ' oh what we need is "more" socialism and then it will be ok' lol. Its hilarious. How about this. Live and let live. Make your own way and let others do the same, If they volunteer to help others then thats great, if not, its their own business and you should have no say it in whatsoever. Anything socialism related would only work in a homesteading community type environment. Trying to force it on people in a modern society is utter stupidity. Folks want to be productive and make money for their work, and they want to keep that money and decide what to do with it for themselves. If you keep stealing from people they will leave. If you force them not to, then you've essentially created a prison lifestyle for people who produce things that others want. That kind of thing starts wars. 

(08-15-2016, 04:17 PM)djam Wrote:  Folks want to be productive and make money for their work, and they want to keep that money and decide what to do with it for themselves. If you keep stealing from people they will leave. If you force them not to, then you've essentially created a prison lifestyle for people who produce things that others want. 

(08-15-2016, 04:43 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: This is such bullshit. I hope your parents never need hospice care, but if they do I guarantee you will be grateful for that bit of socialism. 

(08-15-2016, 05:02 PM)djam Wrote: I hope not either, because my grandfather, who fought in the war, is a retired fire chief and who in general busted his ass his entire life isnt getting anything he's supposed to get and he's not well off and losing everything he's worked for thanks to those wonderful government run social programs.

(08-15-2016, 05:02 PM)djam Wrote:  You will never get back what you pay in or even close. It's a total scam and its broken. Its a big part of the problem. 

(08-15-2016, 04:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People also want clean air, safe working conditions, and a living wage for their work.

They want access to public education.

If they want to start their own business they don't want to be driven into bankruptcy by monopolies that engage in price fixing and market manipulation.   

They don't want to be trapped in poverty while the wealthy elite use their unlimited power to oppress the poor and eliminate any possible competition.

(08-15-2016, 05:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How much do you pay in premiums for the disability insurance you carry?  How much of those premiums will you get back if you never become disabled?

There are millions of orphans and disabled people who get way more than they ever paid in.

I don't think you have a clue how the system works.

(08-15-2016, 05:26 PM)djam Wrote: Yeah but there are many more, many times over of regular people who get completely f'ked because its a total scam and the gov and their buddies in the insurance and medical fields are all getting rich screwing us all over. Maybe a few people get some help tho, who otherwise couldnt, but those numbers are pathetic compared to what is put in.

And for the record, I've always offered benefits for my workers, and I have to pay workmans comp and all that which just went up for me --and every single one of them would rather have that money themselves. All of them know that without the heavy cost of their government monopolized 'benefits', they would make way more money and so would everyone. Most peple would opt out of the gov programs if they had a choice. A choice would be nice. A choice is what socialism and government DOES NOT offer.

(08-15-2016, 05:02 PM)djam Wrote: I hope not either, because my grandfather, who fought in the war, is a retired fire chief and who in general busted his ass his entire life isnt getting anything he's supposed to get and he's not well off and losing everything he's worked for thanks to those wonderful government run social programs. Did he pay in it? In more ways than one heck yes he did. You are brainwashed if you think the government can invest in peoples health care plans and retirement better than the people themselves. You will never get back what you pay in or even close. It's a total scam and its broken. Its a big part of the problem. 

(08-15-2016, 05:21 PM)djam Wrote: People can have all of those things without socialism lol. In fact, socialism and more government control will make all those things even worse. Even before the government started realizing they can control the economy, pick the winners and losers and scam a ton of money off the system by creating a heavily regulated business environment, we were already getting better in some environmental areas just because the market demanded it. Is there a need for some basic government regulation in certain areas? Sure it definitely has its place, but the way it is today it stifles production and hurts people more than it helps them. Just look around, dont take my word for it lol. I am a business owner, and my parents are also business owners. My sister is a business owner. My uncles are business owners. We are all in different fields, but we all agree on one thing. The more the government gets involved, the harder it is to offer a good product at a fair price, and hire good workers and pay them well. Price fixing, monopolies and all that stuff you speak of? Yeah, a direct result of governments allowing big companies to pay them off. Government creates those problems man, when they are supposed to be protecting against it. Socialism would make that even worse because then we dont even have the constitution to use to try and restore our liberty. Once we give up our freedom and power to government, we never get it back. You actually want that? You want more government control? All of the things you listed are because of government lol. 

Tell me how many people that grow up in the government run welfare system ever make it out of poverty? They are not being helped by being cottled from cradle to grave by government. This system is what is really oppressive. Do you know the one single thing in the world that has been responsible for bring more people out of poverty --more than any other thing? Capitalism. Socialism only creates more poor people. The government cant creat some kind of liberal socialistic utophia like you folks thing they can. They can't even manage to keep the road in good shape most of the time, which is one of the very most basic functions. How many of the billions that is stolen from job creators and working class people alike that go into welfare actually make it into the hands of poor people? Its not very much Fred. Your fantasy is nothing but that --a fantasy. Look at Detroit to see what future socialism will bring more of. I shouldnt even have to say anything more. But I know you and you refuse fact to push emotional-based ideals. Its the liberal way. Facts and logic doesnt really enter the mix. 

(08-15-2016, 05:21 PM)djam Wrote: People can have all of those things without socialism lol. In fact, socialism and more government control will make all those things even worse. Even before the government started realizing they can control the economy, pick the winners and losers and scam a ton of money off the system by creating a heavily regulated business environment, we were already getting better in some environmental areas just because the market demanded it. Is there a need for some basic government regulation in certain areas? Sure it definitely has its place, but the way it is today it stifles production and hurts people more than it helps them. Just look around, dont take my word for it lol. I am a business owner, and my parents are also business owners. My sister is a business owner. My uncles are business owners. We are all in different fields, but we all agree on one thing. The more the government gets involved, the harder it is to offer a good product at a fair price, and hire good workers and pay them well. Price fixing, monopolies and all that stuff you speak of? Yeah, a direct result of governments allowing big companies to pay them off. Government creates those problems man, when they are supposed to be protecting against it. Socialism would make that even worse because then we dont even have the constitution to use to try and restore our liberty. Once we give up our freedom and power to government, we never get it back. You actually want that? You want more government control? All of the things you listed are because of government lol. 

Tell me how many people that grow up in the government run welfare system ever make it out of poverty? They are not being helped by being cottled from cradle to grave by government. This system is what is really oppressive. Do you know the one single thing in the world that has been responsible for bring more people out of poverty --more than any other thing? Capitalism. Socialism only creates more poor people. The government cant creat some kind of liberal socialistic utophia like you folks thing they can. They can't even manage to keep the road in good shape most of the time, which is one of the very most basic functions. How many of the billions that is stolen from job creators and working class people alike that go into welfare actually make it into the hands of poor people? Its not very much Fred. Your fantasy is nothing but that --a fantasy. Look at Detroit to see what future socialism will bring more of. I shouldnt even have to say anything more. But I know you and you refuse fact to push emotional-based ideals. Its the liberal way. Facts and logic doesnt really enter the mix. 

(08-15-2016, 05:56 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If individuals are better at investing in their retirement and healthcare, what prevented your grandfather from doing just such a thing?

(08-15-2016, 05:26 PM)djam Wrote: Yeah but there are many more, many times over of regular people who get completely f'ked because its a total scam and the gov and their buddies in the insurance and medical fields are all getting rich screwing us all over. Maybe a few people get some help tho, who otherwise couldnt, but those numbers are pathetic compared to what is put in.

And for the record, I've always offered benefits for my workers, and I have to pay workmans comp and all that which just went up for me --and every single one of them would rather have that money themselves. All of them know that without the heavy cost of their government monopolized 'benefits', they would make way more money and so would everyone. Most peple would opt out of the gov programs if they had a choice. A choice would be nice. A choice is what socialism and government DOES NOT offer.

(08-15-2016, 06:39 PM)djam Wrote: Being promised benefits and VA health care. You folks are completely brainwashed its hilarious. Go ahead and drink the government koolaid al you want lol. It will fail you too some day. 

(08-15-2016, 06:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Detroit had a thriving economy based upon the automotive industry because of capitalism. Then the jobs went elsewhere and their local economy collapsed because of capitalism. Jobs go overseas because of capitalism. Cheaper foreign workers are given work visas because of capitalism. Employers don't provide benefits because of capitalism. Price gouging occurs because of capitalism. Unions were formed because of capitalism. Pharmaceutical companies publish misleading results because of capitalism. Late night TV is filled with over the counter supplements with no proven benefits because of capitalism. Charlatans like Rev. Jim Baker swindle people because of capitalism. Johnathan Joseph couldn't get some Gatorade because of capitalism!

I don't believe in a liberal socialist utopia. I don't believe capitalism and trickle down will solve all are problems.   Because we need both. Capitalism is a system of winners . . . and losers. Many people fail despite their best effort through no fault of their own. Those who work hard and succeed should enjoy their success. But, if we are the greatest nation the world has ever seen as we are quick to tell the rest of the world then I think we should act like the greatest instead of pretending the Shamwow guy and others like him will solve everything if the government would just get out of the way.

(08-15-2016, 06:39 PM)djam Wrote: Being promised benefits and VA health care. 

(08-15-2016, 06:39 PM)djam Wrote:  You folks are completely brainwashed its hilarious.

(08-15-2016, 06:53 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That would not prevent him from investing. 

Guess what? He is in the same boat as everyone else. I pay $1000/month for employee sponsored health insurance. When I retire I won't get the benefit of the discounted employee sponsored health insurance. Meaning I will be forced to pay full price when I have drastically reduced income when I'm older and need health insurance the most and the insurance companies raise the premiums as you age so hopefully the policy will get too expensive for me to afford so I will be forced to drop them and they won't have to pay for my care. Yeah, capitalism. 

(08-15-2016, 06:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF?

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Monopolies were created by private business and the only way to eliminate them was through government action.

Businesses were not voluntarily putting environmental protection policies in place before the government mandated them.

Businesses were not voluntarily putting safe workplace rules in effect before the government mandated them. 

What is the government doing that makes it hard for you to hire good workers and pay them well?

How exactly are government programs responsible for your grandfather losing everything he worked for?



Nothing you are saying seems to have any basis in reality.

(08-15-2016, 06:59 PM)djam Wrote: Did you know that GM was paying high wages and expensive benefits to employee's who hadnt produce a single product or dollar for them in 15 years? 

(08-15-2016, 06:59 PM)djam Wrote:  I spent a lot of my life in China and I can tell you now, they have big issues, but the sweat shop thing that Americans buy into is NOTHING like you've been told it is. 

(08-15-2016, 06:59 PM)djam Wrote:  But the bottom line is that in the end, most people want to live free and in the end most people would be willing to even die to fight for thevreedom they want to protect or gain. You cant have both freedom and government control. 

(08-15-2016, 06:59 PM)djam Wrote:  Unless you've really researched history, you dont even know what a free market is because we havent had anything that even resembles that since our grandparents were kids. 

Sadly I dont think most people understand basic economics.