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+---- Thread: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered (/Thread-Intermediate-step-to-beginning-of-life-uncovered)
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 03:35 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The fact that you know something will happen with certainty prior to it happening sort of dictates that it happens.
Not even a little bit.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 04:07 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "Free will" and an all-knowing god aren't compatible.
Yes they are.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 04:07 PM)Beaker Wrote: I never said he wasnt loved. Whether he was loved or not was not the point. God's choice to create him ALREADY KNOWING how it would turn out is the point.
And I used the term omnipotent as a catch all. In my lead in I said the bible says god is (and therefore knows) the beginning and the end.
Who said God created him, as if he designed when and where he was born? You keep sticking to that to try and back up your 'knowledge removes free will' argument. Free will logically dictates that in order to exist, a passive--not active--role must be taken. So God sits back as men and women decide to have sex and, voila, Hitler is born. God didn't bring him into this world, his parents did. God may have "got the ball rolling" with Adam and Eve. After that, it was everyone else deciding who was being born and when.
Why do you want to keep millions and millions of people from experiencing Heaven just because there are going to be those that choose to deny and don't get to experience it?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 04:10 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I think his point was if God has already seen the movie, the actions of the characters are fixed. They cannot deviate from what is already known. Consequently, you might think all these outcomes are possible, whereas the outcome is already known. The actors don't have "free will" to change the outcome on subsequent viewings.
And during the filming of the movie, the actors had a choice to read the lines as they were written, or improvise.
BOOM!!!
Sorry. I had to type a big boom there cause i erased two previous replies before posting this. I did that because i have free will and neither one of them were as nice as this one. I have, though, clicked on submit when i hadn't erased the not so nice things i typed. Because...free will.
I chose.
Just now.
And instead of stopping, i'm continuing to type because i feel like it. Not because someone is guiding my fingers. And because if i wanted to, i could sit here and type all night and no one would stop me.
But now i'm going to stop.
Because i feel like stopping now.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 04:17 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: One child knows better while the other child doesn't.
You don't believe your daughter has a rudimentary understanding of right or wrong? Or good and evil? Has your daughter ever had a bad dream? Or watched Snow White or any Disney movie with a villain? If she can understand a villain in a Disney movie she can understand good and evil, right and wrong.
The only thing Adam and Eve needed to know was that dying means they can no longer be in Eden or with God.
Quick and easy, lemon squeezy.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 04:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It should be noted that there are two primary views on omniscience in today's theological discussions: inherent and total. Many modern scholars see the God of Abraham as an inherent omniscient being, meaning that while he has the potential to know all, but only chooses to know certain things. The opposing side to that is total omniscience, meaning he just knows all, and that is the typical stance of Calvinists and the other predestination crowd members.
[b]Question: "Does God really forget our sins? How could an omniscient God forget anything?"
Answer:There are several passages in the Bible that indicate that Godforgivesand forgetsour sin.Isaiah 43:25says, “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-forget.html
[/b]
So God says he can forget our sins...the same omniscient God that some are saying can't 'not know'.
Who should i believe?
P.S. I REAAAALLY hate the formatting on quoted text. W(here)TH are those bold tags coming from?? They're not in this text box as i'm typing??!! :snark:
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 04:34 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: God supposedly knew my every thought and action before I existed. Consequently the script of my life was written before I even had consciousness. My character had to have been "written that way", otherwise he could not possibly know.
Consequently, I'm only acting out the script that was predestined by him and his knowledge of my future thoughts and actions. I can not have a thought or action counter to his previous knowledge of them.
I'm basically a movie character in a movie he has already watched.
Try watching a movie and see how many times it changes.
When you're watching a movie, even though you're watching that actor at that moment, the movie has already been filmed and the actors are somewhere else, doing something else.
As you're sitting there reading this right now, God is watching you and knows what you will do 5 years from now, yet it hasn't happened yet. Five minutes from now hasn't happened yet. You can continue to read this, or get up and leave from where you are. Nothing is physically making you do either.
Wrap your head around that.
Or maybe you believe you have no say in what you do; continue reading or get up and leave. In that case, you're right. You have no free will.
I bet you believe it's your choice of which one you decide to do.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 05:26 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Correct. Adam and Eve are always going to fail because they are always going to choose the same choice thus the outcome will always be the same. If you always choose the same choice and the outcome is always the same then you can't choose any other choice to change the outcome. Their future is locked in. Is that free will or predestination?
Are we talking about the only example we have, or multiple tries?
If free will is real, what is there to prove that the choice will always be the same?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 09:44 PM)Benton Wrote: Stop thinking so linearly. It's weird someone supporting a scientific approach has such a closed mind.
Why do they always highlight the punishment while ignoring the atonement?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 09:54 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If I know your destination before you leave I know where you will go and where you won't. If I know you're going to NYC you won't wind up in LA.
Because he chose to go to NYC. You didn't make him, you just knew his choice.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - rfaulk34 - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:01 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Perhaps I should just stop thinking at all and rely on "faith" to make sense of things that don't make sense otherwise?
I have faith but i don't use it to make sense of things that don't make sense otherwise. And i don't stop thinking.
That sounds awfully closed-minded.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 10:00 PM)Benton Wrote: And me knowing (which doesn't have anything to do with making your car) changes your decision how? If you decide to go to NYC, and I know that, how does my knowing decide that you end up there?
Omniscient doesn't mean I sent you there.
Let me preface my answer by telling you this; you and I disagree on a philosophical level. I think we can agree to disagree while still respecting the other's opinion. I don't feel like you are trying to force me to live my life according to your beliefs and I'm certainly not trying to force you to live your life according to my beliefs. You seem like a reasonable person. My comments aren't meant to offend reasonable people like yourself. However, I like messing with the unreasonable people who believe other's life choice should conform to their beliefs.
So your question presupposes one chooses the correct destination. God knows your destination. Because he knows your destination there is only one correct option. If your known destination is NYC, but you choose LA, you will arrive at NYC. You just chose the incorrect destination.
God has a plan.
If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of LA, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult; God is telling you this isn't your path. You need to quit and follow a different path. God's path. Because God intends for you to travel to NYC. (You chose incorrectly and God steered you along the correct path.)
If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of NYC, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult; God is testing you and you need to persevere and follow God's path for you. Because God intends for you to travel to NYC. (You chose correctly and God steered you along the correct path.)
If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of NYC, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult and you crash your car into one of those obstacles and die then someone will tell your widow, "It's all a part of God's plan." (You chose incorrectly and God steered you along the correct path.)
If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of NYC, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult and you're about to crash into one of those obstacles and miraculously Jesus takes the wheel and saves you. (Again God steered you along the correct path.)
So no matter the destination or the path, once you get there you can always look back and say, "God had a plan for me" because hindsight is 20/20. As far as delusions go, it's brilliant.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Belsnickel - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 03:53 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [b]Question: "Does God really forget our sins? How could an omniscient God forget anything?"
Answer:There are several passages in the Bible that indicate that Godforgivesand forgetsour sin.Isaiah 43:25says, “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-forget.html
[/b]
So God says he can forget our sins...the same omniscient God that some are saying can't 'not know'.
Who should i believe?
P.S. I REAAAALLY hate the formatting on quoted text. W(here)TH are those bold tags coming from?? They're not in this text box as i'm typing??!! :snark:
Which all goes to support the theory that he is inhereently omniscient, which thoroughly supports the concept of free will. It would be like reading the first chapter of a book, skimming the middle, and reading the final chapter. Or like reading ASoIaF and watching GoT. :snark:
P.S. I dislike the quoting stuff on here as well.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 03:11 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources
http://bobsiegel.net/articles/2010/02/are-there-historical-references-to-jesus-his-miracles-and-his-resurrection-outside-the-new-testament/
No mentions of any supernatural miracles in any of those accounts. You think men coming out of their graves would be of interest to historians.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 04:16 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I have faith but i don't use it to make sense of things that don't make sense otherwise. And i don't stop thinking.
That sounds awfully closed-minded.
Faith is the definition of close mindedness: how can you be reasoned out of something you were never reasoned into?
Christianity is a closed system of beliefs not open to new info.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Ben Richards - 06-16-2015
You know what is funny about 'faith' and the Christian God? On the first page of that little sci-fi novel it talks about this creator making stuff and then all of a sudden he needs a nap because he is tired or something from all the creating....
So you're meaning to tell me that this all powerful wizard has the ability to make something from nothing, but he still gets weak and tired?
Christians, why is your 'God' lazy and weak? I look forward to your brilliant responses that I won't read.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - GMDino - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 09:18 AM)Ben Richards Wrote: You know what is funny about 'faith' and the Christian God? On the first page of that little sci-fi novel it talks about this creator making stuff and then all of a sudden he needs a nap because he is tired or something from all the creating....
So you're meaning to tell me that this all powerful wizard has the ability to make something from nothing, but he still gets weak and tired?
Christians, why is your 'God' lazy and weak? I look forward to your brilliant responses that I won't read.
![[Image: epicurus-quote.jpg]](https://richardathome.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/epicurus-quote.jpg)
Coming from a born and raised Catholic. Questions. Always questions.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It is funny. If a satisfactory answer to a question of scripture cannot be given, then this means it is not true. If a satisfactory answer to a question of science cannot be given, then this means we just haven’t discovered it yet.
It is sad that you thought you were being "clever" with this response. The scripture tells us we should walk by faith and not by sight.
If religious people can't get a "satisfactory" answer to something that baffles them, they say "God did it".
That's the difference between religious faith and science.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 03:41 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: And during the filming of the movie, the actors had a choice to read the lines as they were written, or improvise.
BOOM!!!
Sorry. I had to type a big boom there cause i erased two previous replies before posting this. I did that because i have free will and neither one of them were as nice as this one. I have, though, clicked on submit when i hadn't erased the not so nice things i typed. Because...free will.
I chose.
Just now.
And instead of stopping, i'm continuing to type because i feel like it. Not because someone is guiding my fingers. And because if i wanted to, i could sit here and type all night and no one would stop me.
But now i'm going to stop.
Because i feel like stopping now.
How can you "improvise" from a script god wrote before you were even born?
You can't.
You were pre-programmed at the factory.
And you typed big not because of "free will", but because God programmed you to. You only think you have free will. That's the joke of it all.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - GMDino - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 09:28 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If religious people can't get a "satisfactory" answer to something that baffles them, they say "God did it".
That's the difference between religious faith and science.
Bingo.
People of faith "believe". That is what faith is: I don't understand it, but I believe it. They think they already know the answer and there is no use in seeking it anymore.
People of science will admit they do not know but know there IS an answer and they seek it.