(08-24-2020, 11:45 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: What I was saying wasn't obvious?  I thought it was.  Sorry.

(08-24-2020, 11:57 AM)Dill Wrote: No, not obvious. Is it explicable at all?

(08-24-2020, 11:57 AM)Dill Wrote: No, not obvious. Is it explicable at all?

(08-24-2020, 12:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: Don't expect an explanation. It will be "obvious" that we are too dense to understand and then round and round the mulberry bush we go.

If there was an straight answer we would have had it.

These kind of games just drag the forum down IMHO.

(08-24-2020, 12:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I find it interesting that both the Klan and the far left use the same rules to decide who is, and is not, black.  

Yes, that's what drags the forum down.  It's certainly not groups of people who like to mob up on other posters.  That's never caused any problems.

(08-24-2020, 03:01 PM)Dill Wrote: So I'll concede that the Klan is still using the one-drop rule, but I'm wondering why you would conclude that "the left" or the left or whomever still is. Can you offer some examples?

Quote:What is gained by such a claim? What would Leftists or "Leftists" gain? It's pretty easy to see how the one drop-rule supports the Klan's vision for an all-white US; how would it support the left's vision of a multicultural US, one based upon racial equality?

(08-24-2020, 03:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is Barack Obama the first black president? 

(08-24-2020, 03:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:

Quote:Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I find it interesting that both the Klan and the far left use the same rules to decide who is, and is not, black. 

Quote: What is gained by such a claim? What would Leftists or "Leftists" gain? It's pretty easy to see how the one drop-rule supports the Klan's vision for an all-white US; how would it support the left's vision of a multicultural US, one based upon racial equality?

That is an outstanding question.  I'm sure the real answer to it would be very enlightening.  

(08-23-2020, 11:34 AM)GMDino Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 02:56 PM)Dill Wrote: This Dino-meme actually belongs on this thread.



If anyone on this thread has questioned whether Kamala was really Black, I missed it; but it is interesting that so many right wingers (and not just white ones) have gone there--mostly the day after the pick was announced. It seems to have slacked off now.

The issue here is not that people question a black person's competence because she is black, but that they are questioning WHETHER she is Black, or the right kind of Black.  Dino's Youtube post of Noah's takedown introduces all sorts of criteria for "real" blackness, and it is claimed Kamala does not meet those criteria.

LOL. I'm betting that Hollo, way over there in Austria, did not even know that real blacks are descended from slavery, not slave owners, and experienced oppression in the US, not Jamaica.  Biden can fool Europeans but not real Americans.

(08-24-2020, 04:35 PM)Dill Wrote: I'd say he was, yes. The first president coded "black" in the US system of culturally defined "race."  
But neither Obama's self identification, nor my answer, are an example of "the left"/left using the one-drop rule.*

Quote:Since you are the one who made the claim, I was assuming YOU could enlighten us. If we had some examples of "the left"/left using the one-drop rule we might be able to work out an answer.

Quote:You would surely not the claim baseless, so we just need to know whom, on the "left"/left is using the one drop rule.

Quote:*FYI in some countries, like Brazil, there is a one-drop rule but it works the other way. In Brazil Obama could be "white."

(08-24-2020, 04:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I admit, I'm not as in the loop politically or keeping up with the news as much as I should, but who has debated Kamala's "blackness"? Amongst all the criticism for Kamala being Biden's VP pick, I've not heard any prominent individual claim she wasn't black enough. Like I said, I'm not as in the loop as I'd like to be so I'm sure someone will let me know who has.

(08-24-2020, 04:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quite the dodge, and we all know why. 

I just gave you one.

Of course not, which is why I gave you an example.  Is Colin Kaepernick black?

I appreciate your proving my point for me.  Kudos.

(08-24-2020, 05:44 PM)Dill Wrote: Well, if you watched that montage of Fox News and 600 club commentary compiled by Trevor Noah then you would see people questioning Kamala's "Blackness."  I.e., the question whether she had the "American experience" of blackness and whether she is an African-American (since her father was from Jamaica). Maybe she is really Indian? The question they raise is whether she is Black AMERICAN enough. As Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh put it, she is not African AMERICAN enough or at all.  Doesn't have "slave blood."

Perhaps it is who counts a "prominent individual." Maybe you don't consider Rush, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, and Pat Robertson "prominent." 

I'd consider Trump a prominent individual, though he has not been questioning WHETHER Kamala is black.  Indian, Jamaican, African--its all the same to him.  He has been questioning her citizenship.  Another form of questioning Black "credentials."

(08-24-2020, 06:15 PM)Dill Wrote: Hmmm.  I've been reading your posts in good faith and responding to them with discussion and explanation. E.g., without condemning things you claimed, I've taken the time to explain how I am use terms like "racism" and "leftism" with reference to their history. I've asked you for similar explanations of your position, so far without success.  If I claimed you "dodged" something I would quote the dodge and explain why it was a dodge. I wouldn't just point and claim and then point again. Why wouldn't THAT be dodging?

Quote:So I don't think "we all" see a dodge and "know why." Or at least we don't see me dodging.

Quote:You say you gave me an example of "the left" using the one drop rule. But I don't see any such example. You just asked if Obama was "black." If I answer "yes," that doesn't prove that I or Obama or anyone else has adopted the one-drop rule, designed to base legal exclusion on a biological fiction. Perhaps you misunderstand what the one-drop rule is and how it works? You are not familiar with its legal history and application? Could be you are putting your on gloss on the term, so it fits for you but no one else. An explanation of what you mean by the one-drop rule, and why that applies to ME calling Obama "Black," could clarify or rule out that possibility.

Quote:Same answer for Colin Kaepernick. Calling people with African features

Quote:who self-identify as black "black" is just not proof that "the left," or anyone assents to such identification, is applying a biological designation toward legal discrimination.  If your examples stood, then recognizing that any individual belongs to any any "race" would be an application of the one-drop rule, even in places where the rule never existed and people have no knowledge of it.

Quote:Still a chance for dialogue here. You invoked "the dodge" as a bad practice. So explain why recognizing Obama or Kaepernick as "Black" is necessarily a deployment of the one-drop rule. Are you saying that recognition of race in ANY capacity or any purpose = a one-drop rule devised for racial control? If that were the case, why was it ever necessary to elaborate a one drop rule if it were already universal? Can you answer with, not a question or an accusation, but an explanation?

Quote:Also, show how a one-drop rule in Brazil which "works the other way" proves your point that "leftists" use the same rule as the Klan in the US.

(08-24-2020, 06:38 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not able to see the videos while at work, but are these people claiming Kamala is not black enough or turning the left's own logic in on itself; using the left's statements on various individuals in the past against Kamala?

(08-24-2020, 07:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: How could Obama be "black" if his mother was a white woman?  It is no more accurate to say he is black than to say he is white.  You've absolutely provided your use of these terms, and I find your use less than acceptable, at best self serving.

Why would someone who is no more black than white be labeled as black?  Why isn't (s)he white?  Oh wait, you're using the prison determinant of race, which is you are what you look like.  Not a good look in my opinion. 

What do you mean, "African features"?  What are these features you're alluding to?

(08-24-2020, 07:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ahh, now you're introducing the need "legal discrimination" into the mix.  Pleas don't bother.  I am referencing the almost complete tendency by those on the left to label a mixed race person, in which some of their ancestry is black, as "black".  

(08-24-2020, 07:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why aren't Obama or Kaepernick identified as white?  They are no more black than they are white, correct?  See, I personally don't care, at all.  People can identify as whatever they choose, but I do find it amusing that any amount of black ancestry gets one labeled as black by the left.  Feel free to offer a counter example.

You just acknowledged how the exact same principle works in reverse in Brazil.  A concept cannot work in reverse without the counterpart working as previously described.  

(08-24-2020, 07:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quite honestly though, this conversation is going in a direction I'm not inclined to continue.  As I said, I don't care what people want to identify as.  I just find it odd that a person with any black ancestry is considered black by people who say they strive for racial equality.  I guess the rest of their genetic ancestry is immaterial.  

(08-24-2020, 09:15 PM)Dill Wrote: The bold touches on why the Left-without-quotation-marks (hereafter LwQM) considers race a social/cultural/historical designation rather than a biological one. In the US, people were considered "black" even if they had only one black ancestor four generations back. That framing of race is what created "African Americans" as an ethnic group distinct from, say, Carribean or South Americans of African descent, places where the one-drop rule never obtained.

Quote:So, going back to US history, even very light-skinned people with African features

Quote:"African features" would be primarily skin and facial features which, singly or in combination, could signal black ancestry to anyone policing racial divisions. 

Quote:To say that the LwQM view of race looks like a "prison determinant of race" is to say that in prison, race no important social classficatory function. Or it is still to misunderstand that view altogether.

Quote:Well you introduced "legal discrimination" when you referenced the one-drop rule--a legal concept which enforced discrimination. You said "the Left" used it as well as the Klan. Perhaps you did not know what the one drop rule is, or why any common, ordinary recognition of any racial feature/identity, including self-identification out of pride, does not exemplify it. 

Quote:Well I can't exactly offer a "counter example" until I get an example.

Quote:Virtually EVERYONE in the US "labels" Obama and Kaepernick as "Black," including Obama and Kaepernick (and probably you before this thread), which does not make ALL THOSE PEOPLE part of the the left or the right or the klan or exponents of the one drop rule. 

Quote:So again, it is not possible to know what you are really talking about when you say "the left" labels people with any amount of black ancestry as "black," and in some manner which makes them the mirror image of the Klan. I just cited two LwQM authors who DO NOT "label" people as you say but illuinate the social development of such labels. From you I still have no names, no examples, just this monolithic construction "the Left" with no face(s). 

Quote:Sure, there is a similar "reverse" one-drop principle at work in Brazil, and I defined it through a US counterpart. Merely noting that doesn't somehow connect it to  "the left" in either country, or make your point about how "the left" views race in the US. 

Quote:?? I wasn't aware that recognition of "black ancestry" worked against racial equality, though denying it has often been an effect of racism. 

Quote:Frankly, it would be pretty odd to see a LwQM walking around saying "you got one eighth then you are black not white."  Could that have happened in 1935? Not sure. Maybe. Today a LwQM would be fine if someone with one eighth ancestry called himself white or black.  I'm not surprised you don't seem to have examples. 

Quote:A concluding note: People who self identify as or who are called "Black" in the US are not all "lefists." They comprise plenty of conservatives and liberals of all shades.

Quote:They argue about what race is, what Black identity is, and the mix is complicated when people of color from other countries arrive in the US from the Carribean or India or South America and DO NOT identify as black, only to find themselves challenged by others to explain themselves. Outside of Fox, people don't designate all those people and their debates/positions as "the Left." 

(08-24-2020, 11:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-It-s-Kamala?pid=893882#pid893882][/url]The bold touches on why the Left-without-quotation-marks (hereafter LwQM) considers race a social/cultural/historical designation rather than a biological one. In the US, people were considered "black" even if they had only one black ancestor four generations back. That framing of race is what created "African Americans" as an ethnic group distinct from, say, Carribean or South Americans of African descent, places where the one-drop rule never obtained.

So, why would you want to perpetuate this? 

You keep referencing "African features", what exactly do you mean by this?
 I ask again, as you seem to know, what exactly are these "African features?"
Sorry, this part really doesn't make sense.

(08-24-2020, 11:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:

Quote: Wrote:Well you introduced "legal discrimination" when you referenced the one-drop rule--a legal concept which enforced discrimination. You said "the Left" used it as well as the Klan. Perhaps you did not know what the one drop rule is, or why any common, ordinary recognition of any racial feature/identity, including self-identification out of pride, does not exemplify it. 

No, I really didn't.  You're arguing a different point than me.  I'm stating the left of today will use the same standard as the past to determine who is, and is not, black.  I make no claims on how this is used for, or against them, in society.  That's your joint.

(08-24-2020, 11:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:Virtually EVERYONE in the US "labels" Obama and Kaepernick as "Black," including Obama and Kaepernick (and probably you before this thread), which does not make ALL THOSE PEOPLE part of the the left or the right or the klan or exponents of the one drop rule. 

I'm sad to hear that.  I see them both as being of mixed ethnicity.  I'm sorry you completely discount their parent who was not black, especially as Obama's dad essentially abandoned him and he was raised by his mother and maternal grandparents.  What a disservice to their memory and effort to utterly discount their contribution both to his genetics and his upbringing.

(08-24-2020, 11:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I just gave you two examples.
Sure, the exact thing happens in another country but in reverse, but you brought it up to prove what?
Who said it did?  However, utterly ignoring the entirety of someone's ancestry does.
I'm surprised you don't have even one.

Quote: Wrote:A concluding note: People who self identify as or who are called "Black" in the US are not all "lefists." They comprise plenty of conservatives and liberals of all shades.

An intriguingly odd statement for you to make considering your past comments about black Trump supporters.

Seeing as you have apparently given this a lot of thought I'm surprised you didn't provide even one example.

(08-25-2020, 12:55 AM)Dill Wrote: I wouldn't. And don't. That's why  I have for years argued against using race as political marker. And I am not perpetuating it by referencing the history, or by affirming there is an African-American culture distinct from that of African diaspora in the Carribean and South America. Seems like you are denying this history and its effects, or implying that its recognition is validation of the one-drop rule.  

As I said above, "African features" would be facial features which, in some combination, triggered racial policing. E.g., dark and especially black skin. Thick noirette hair. And you are aware of how these and other genetic features were used to segregate African Americans. On this point I think that for once, we mean the same thing. You are not going to tell me that black people were not excluded from lunch counters in Birmingham Alabama in 1963 because of their black skin. So the question is why would you ask what "African features" are? 

I can see fodder for digressions here, which do not challenge at all what I have said about the construction of race in the US. E.g., some people of African descent can be very light skinned and some people who are not from Africa can be very dark. Or worse, recognition of different shades in skin color is itself somehow "racist."

To explain the part that doesn't makes sense--you heard me explain how race was a social construct for Leftists, then concluded it was "prison determinative" for no clear reason. No warrant for that inference.

Well you can't claim "the left" uses the one-drop rule without introducing legal discrimination any more than you could dissect a triangle without introducing geometry. If I'm "arguing a different point" its because you don't know what the one-drop rule is that you invokes, or how it was deployed. You are conflating different behaviors around recognition that some people have different skin colors. 

I have explained to you how "the left of today" treats race, cited two authors, and can provide more. Neither of those authors "use the same standard as the past."  Now it's clear that you can't cite any author that supports your claim.  


So EVERYONE in the US labels Obama and Kaepernick as Black, including Obama and Kaepernick, and your take away is that I "completely discount the parent who was not black." I'd love to hear what Obama and Kaepernick thought of this dialogue and my "disservice" to the memory of their genetics. Both of these men grew up in an America which discounted their white parents, and that is why they grew up with a special interest in Black history and politics.  And they aren't perpetuating racism by their choice. They are challenging it. 

No, you've not given me a single example of a leftist who uses the one-drop rule or says someone one-eighth black has to be black.
You continue to deflect the question.  And the Brazil reference is another example of race is variously defined.

I have a feeling that you cannot specify what is "odd" about my statement. Mentioning "past comments about black Trump supporters" without quoting them or explaining their relevance is no more substantive than saying my "posting history" proves something. 

When you refuse to acknowedge specific examples, or to provide your own, or to define terms, or to reference unspecified "comments" as if its clear what they were and their relevance to this discusssion, you are not really arguing in good faith, are you? You are trying to critique my views, which I am always happy to explain and support, while exposing your own as little as possible. Nence the critique is ad hoc and reactive.

My curiosity is now piqued by this reticence. How does your advocacy for recognition of "mixed race" identities fit into current politics, where LsQM also research and celebrate mixed race identities?  Why is it so important to conflate left wing views on race with right--without evidence?

(08-25-2020, 08:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Video and sources were used to show how the right wing noise machine has attacked black candidates and how they adopted that same tone and verbiage to attack Harris now.

That is being disputed by opinions that the "left" does the same.

Quote:This is a silly argument.

(08-25-2020, 12:55 AM)Dill Wrote: I wouldn't. And don't. That's why  I have for years argued against using race as political marker. And I am not perpetuating it by referencing the history, or by affirming there is an African-American culture distinct from that of African diaspora in the Carribean and South America. Seems like you are denying this history and its effects, or implying that its recognition is validation of the one-drop rule.  

As I said above, "African features" would be facial features which, in some combination, triggered racial policing. E.g., dark and especially black skin. Thick noirette hair. And you are aware of how these and other genetic features were used to segregate African Americans. On this point I think that for once, we mean the same thing. You are not going to tell me that black people were not excluded from lunch counters in Birmingham Alabama in 1963 because of their black skin. So the question is why would you ask what "African features" are? 

I can see fodder for digressions here, which do not challenge at all what I have said about the construction of race in the US. E.g., some people of African descent can be very light skinned and some people who are not from Africa can be very dark. Or worse, recognition of different shades in skin color is itself somehow "racist."

To explain the part that doesn't makes sense--you heard me explain how race was a social construct for Leftists, then concluded it was "prison determinative" for no clear reason. No warrant for that inference.

Well you can't claim "the left" uses the one-drop rule without introducing legal discrimination any more than you could dissect a triangle without introducing geometry. If I'm "arguing a different point" its because you don't know what the one-drop rule is that you invokes, or how it was deployed. You are conflating different behaviors around recognition that some people have different skin colors. 

I have explained to you how "the left of today" treats race, cited two authors, and can provide more. Neither of those authors "use the same standard as the past."  Now it's clear that you can't cite any author that supports your claim.  


So EVERYONE in the US labels Obama and Kaepernick as Black, including Obama and Kaepernick, and your take away is that I "completely discount the parent who was not black." I'd love to hear what Obama and Kaepernick thought of this dialogue and my "disservice" to the memory of their genetics. Both of these men grew up in an America which discounted their white parents, and that is why they grew up with a special interest in Black history and politics.  And they aren't perpetuating racism by their choice. They are challenging it. 

No, you've not given me a single example of a leftist who uses the one-drop rule or says someone one-eighth black has to be black.
You continue to deflect the question.  And the Brazil reference is another example of race is variously defined.

I have a feeling that you cannot specify what is "odd" about my statement. Mentioning "past comments about black Trump supporters" without quoting them or explaining their relevance is no more substantive than saying my "posting history" proves something. 

When you refuse to acknowedge specific examples, or to provide your own, or to define terms, or to reference unspecified "comments" as if its clear what they were and their relevance to this discusssion, you are not really arguing in good faith, are you? You are trying to critique my views, which I am always happy to explain and support, while exposing your own as little as possible. Nence the critique is ad hoc and reactive.

My curiosity is now piqued by this reticence. How does your advocacy for recognition of "mixed race" identities fit into current politics, where LsQM also research and celebrate mixed race identities?  Why is it so important to conflate left wing views on race with right--without evidence?

(08-25-2020, 10:21 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's not being "disputed" by anyone.  I will ask you again, please stop stating falsehoods about the argument I have made or am making.  This is the second time I have had to ask you this in past week.  I'd hate to think your were doing this deliberately.  Kindly ensure there is a not a third time.


It would be if anyone was actually making it.