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+--- Thread: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss (/Thread-The-Left-Is-Cancelling-Dr-Seuss)
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - CJD - 03-05-2021
(03-04-2021, 09:17 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Male and female aren't labels, they're terms used to represent sex.
When you say a dog or cat is male or female, are you attempting to label who they really are on the inside?
If people want to use gender to differ from sex (were basically synonymous until very recently) then that's a conversation to be had. I see nothing wrong with people choosing to dress, act, or identify anyway they would like. Nor do I think anyone should go out of their way to not respect their ability to do so.
But there is nothing wrong with others (in conversation, not in the face of a trans person) using sex (not gender) for their own opinion of what actually constitutes being a male or female, or a man or a woman.
Here's the thing:
Outside of sex determination and during intercourse with a person, their sex is essentially irrelevant. It's their gender that is important and relevant in society.
When a person is walking down the street, you don't pull down their pants and check their genitals before you say "that's a woman" or "that's a man." You just look at them and, based on their gendered characteristics and traits, you make a determination. You're not correct 100% of the time, as with androgynous people, but you have probably a 95% success rate.
So Transgendered people (gender is even in the word, as the term "transsexual" is no longer a word we use in society due to its inaccuracy) will often appear to be the gender they identify as, so identifying them by their sex makes no sense except if you want to "otherize" them (basically saying they aren't what they say they are.)
If you want to get EVEN more technical, sex is not even determined by your genitals. It's determined by your chromosomes. And a doctor can't even check those when a baby is born. Genitals obviously are nearly synonymous with chromosomes, but it's not 100%.
Overall, Gender is just a much better way of categorizing people, in my (and most everyone's) opinions.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 11:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same away about people who lack empathy or an ability let other people live their lives if they aren't bothering them.
Something just went wrong in their brain that they think anyone different is "wrong" and they shouldn't be seen as equals.
It could be a genetic disposition, or it could be due to how they were raised. It's almost like there's more than one possible explanation.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Vas Deferens - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 11:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same away about people who lack empathy or an ability let other people live their lives if they aren't bothering them.
Something just went wrong in their brain that they think anyone different is "wrong" and they shouldn't be seen as equals.
agree, but they are making a specific choice. they may be genetically predisposed to ignorance because their parents were dumbfaucks that met in an idiot corral with a cross on it, but they've made a decision to shelter themselves from knowledge.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - GMDino - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 11:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same away about people who lack empathy or an ability let other people live their lives if they aren't bothering them.
Something just went wrong in their brain that they think anyone different is "wrong" and they shouldn't be seen as equals.
Or people who don't get when a post is made ironically to point out the flaws in the original post.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 12:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: Or people who don't get when a post is made ironically to point out the flaws in the original post.
Dude, don't talk shit on Vas.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Nately120 - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 12:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dude, don't talk shit on Vas.
Isn't Vas a crappy RPG on the Sega CD?
Ok, that's Vay. I'll see myself out.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Vas Deferens - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 12:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dude, don't talk shit on Vas.
or take.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - BmorePat87 - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 10:59 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: No, not at all. You said that not all transgender people transition physically. So he is a man by birth with male body parts who dresses like a woman, but also mentally thinks he is a woman, but really is a man.
You are reading what I type and assuming I am trying to be mean spirited when I am just being honest about what I believe.
I have stated before that I feel horrible for people with Gender Dysphoria. It must be awful to not even now what you are as a human being.
That's probably why the suicide rate is +- 35% in the trans community. It's a horrible mental disfunction.
If your intention is to "not offend", I'd advise you to read up a little before posting so many pathetically ignorant things.
Not all trans people have gender dysphoria. The idea that they don't know who they are is dimwitted transphobia, as is saying "think he is a woman, but really is a man".
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Wes Mantooth - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 11:44 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Here's the thing:
Outside of sex determination and during intercourse with a person, their sex is essentially irrelevant. It's their gender that is important and relevant in society.
When a person is walking down the street, you don't pull down their pants and check their genitals before you say "that's a woman" or "that's a man." You just look at them and, based on their gendered characteristics and traits, you make a determination. You're not correct 100% of the time, as with androgynous people, but you have probably a 95% success rate.
So Transgendered people (gender is even in the word, as the term "transsexual" is no longer a word we use in society due to its inaccuracy) will often appear to be the gender they identify as, so identifying them by their sex makes no sense except if you want to "otherize" them (basically saying they aren't what they say they are.)
If you want to get EVEN more technical, sex is not even determined by your genitals. It's determined by your chromosomes. And a doctor can't even check those when a baby is born. Genitals obviously are nearly synonymous with chromosomes, but it's not 100%.
Overall, Gender is just a much better way of categorizing people, in my (and most everyone's) opinions.
I have no problem with however it is people choose to live their lives, in whatever way that brings them as much happiness as possible (as long as it doesn't in some way afford me the same in return).
I'm not chiming in on these issues to be the guy that's drawing the line in the sand about sex and gender, and applying it evenly across the entire spectrum of debate. To be honest, I don't really care all that much. As long as "you're cool with me, I'm cool with you".
Using someone's preferred pronouns takes as much effort as my "please's" and "thank you's". No skin off my back. I will also respect a person's wish to transition their apperance much in the same ways I would in more convential examples (being a goth, being a hippie, being into cosplay). People can choose to act, dress, speak, and identify any way in which they wish, and I will allow them all an equal right to do so.
And you're right, there's tons of people who transition that I'm sure you can't even tell when walking past. Again, why would I care? That would appear to be just another women walking past (or man, depending on the example)
The only issue that I would I have is that I don't think it's abhorent for some people to still hold sex above gender, in their own personal views. That's not to diminish much of what I just wrote above. Even if they do use sex, and not gender, that doesn't mean trans individuals shouldn't me afforded the same respect and protections.
We may disagree here, but as an example, if someone is unwilling to accept that the "It's Ma'am" person from Gamestop is actually woman then I can in no way fault them for that. That doesn't mean they should behave in any way to bring hurt onto this person, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to see that person, and recgonize that is clearly a man wearing woman's clothing.
Biden's recent cabinet pick is another example. That person is clearly transgender. That person is not a woman. Socially she might identify as one, and people should respect that. But I'm sorry, that is not a woman. It's just not.
Beyond genitalia, there's naturally occuring hormones, bone structure, the ability to birth a child, menstruation, menopause, etc. These things don't just disappear with a transition. You can't fault people for personally feeling that these are things that make up a female, and defaulting to sex over gender.
Perhaps some of us will just have to disagree on some of this. Or maybe there's something lost in the translation. Either way, I appreciate the conversation.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - CJD - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I have no problem with however it is people choose to live their lives, in whatever way that brings them as much happiness as possible (as long as it doesn't in some way afford me the same in return).
I'm not chiming in on these issues to be the guy that's drawing the line in the sand about sex and gender, and applying it evenly across the entire spectrum of debate. To be honest, I don't really care all that much. As long as "you're cool with me, I'm cool with you".
Using someone's preferred pronouns takes as much effort as my "please's" and "thank you's". No skin off my back. I will also respect a person's wish to transition their apperance much in the same ways I would in more convential examples (being a goth, being a hippie, being into cosplay). People can choose to act, dress, speak, and identify any way in which they wish, and I will allow them all an equal right to do so.
And you're right, there's tons of people who transition that I'm sure you can't even tell when walking past. Again, why would I care? That would appear to be just another women walking past (or man, depending on the example)
The only issue that I would I have is that I don't think it's abhorent for some people to still hold sex above gender, in their own personal views. That's not to diminish much of what I just wrote above. Even if they do use sex, and not gender, that doesn't mean trans individuals shouldn't me afforded the same respect and protections.
We may disagree here, but as an example, if someone is unwilling to accept that the "It's Ma'am" person from Gamestop is actually woman then I can in no way fault them for that. That doesn't mean they should behave in any way to bring hurt onto this person, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to see that person, and recgonize that is clearly a man wearing woman's clothing.
Biden's recent cabinet pick is another example. That person is clearly transgender. That person is not a woman. Socially she might identify as one, and people should respect that. But I'm sorry, that is not a woman. It's just not.
Beyond genitalia, there's naturally occuring hormones, bone structure, the ability to birth a child, menstruation, menopause, etc. These things don't just disappear with a transition. You can't fault people for personally feeling that these are things that make up a female, and defaulting to sex over gender.
Perhaps some of us will just have to disagree on some of this. Or maybe there's something lost in the translation. Either way, I appreciate the conversation.
I don't know that person's specific situation but, if I was a betting man, I'd say she was a woman who had transitioned late in life and most likely had just recently begun her transition. She was likely very self conscious about her appearance and was doing her best to project femininity, albeit to a limited extent because she probably lived the majority of her adult life (and almost certainly her puberty and sexual maturity) before transitioning. And, sure, she was acting pretty shitty in that video, but none of it had to do with her identity. She was being a "Karen" just like a cis woman could be, but people honed in on her trans identity because of, you guessed it, transphobia.
But I don't think that makes her any less of a woman than a person who identifies early in her life that she was a woman. For example, there's a show on TLC (I think, may be Bravo) called This is Jazz. It follows the life of a teenage transgender woman who, at a young age (before puberty) she realized that her gender did not match her biological sex. They used puberty blockers and all that early and she transitioned into what the vast majority of people would consider a beautiful young woman.
In the show she has a few friends who are also transgender women but a few of them did not realize this until after their puberty started. So they look more "manly" as a result.
That doesn't mean they are any less of a woman than Jazz though. They just had a slightly different journey to the same destination.
I don't know for a fact, but I imagine Biden's cabinet pick was in a similar situation to the latter, where she realized her identity change later in life. Especially since I believe she's a boomer, maybe she felt this way for a long time but society would not have accepted her as she was until much later in her life.
Why are we calling transgender women like Jazz "women" but transgender women like the latter case "not a woman?"
As far as I can tell, the perspective you hold almost entirely boils down to how they LOOK, which is explicitly a gender defined classification, not a sex defined classification. Basically "that person is pretty, so she's a woman. That person is ugly, so she's not a real woman."
Imagine you ran into a woman who looked really "manly" and thought to yourself "that's CLEARLY a trans woman, and therefore I've decided she's not a woman" (as you did with Biden's cabinet pick). Then, somehow, you later learn that she was a biological woman, she...just looked manly for whatever reason. You can't deny that this is a possibility.
So what differentiates that "manly" cis woman from a "manly" transgender woman, other than the stigma that transgender women carry because so many people, like Brad and Mickey, think they aren't "real women" and deserve to be treated as such? And how can you possibly make that determination on the fly, say in a bathroom or a locker room?
As far as the bone structure, hormones, ability to give birth etc, those are things that are associated with women, sure. But they aren't definitive. Like with Jazz, hormones can be changed and/or blocked as necessary and bone structure, while generally favors men, there are plenty of bulky women in existence. And ability to give birth, I mean shit, that would mean every woman who has had a hysterectomy is now no longer a woman!
So we could draw a line in the sand and say "this trans woman is too manly to be a woman, so she's pretending. But this trans woman caught it early and is pretty, so we can call her a woman and let her into the bathroom"
ooooooooooooooooor
we can just trust that people are smart enough to self identify properly and do what is best for them and what is best for their situation without threatening them with violence indirectly by claiming they are actually just men trying to see some vaginas and boobs in a locker room...
You know what I mean?
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Mickeypoo - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 11:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same away about people who lack empathy or an ability let other people live their lives if they aren't bothering them.
Something just went wrong in their brain that they think anyone different is "wrong" and they shouldn't be seen as equals.
Except that is not at all what I said. And I sure as hell didn't say they were bothering me or should not be allowed to live their lives.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Mickeypoo - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I have no problem with however it is people choose to live their lives, in whatever way that brings them as much happiness as possible (as long as it doesn't in some way afford me the same in return).
I'm not chiming in on these issues to be the guy that's drawing the line in the sand about sex and gender, and applying it evenly across the entire spectrum of debate. To be honest, I don't really care all that much. As long as "you're cool with me, I'm cool with you".
Using someone's preferred pronouns takes as much effort as my "please's" and "thank you's". No skin off my back. I will also respect a person's wish to transition their apperance much in the same ways I would in more convential examples (being a goth, being a hippie, being into cosplay). People can choose to act, dress, speak, and identify any way in which they wish, and I will allow them all an equal right to do so.
And you're right, there's tons of people who transition that I'm sure you can't even tell when walking past. Again, why would I care? That would appear to be just another women walking past (or man, depending on the example)
The only issue that I would I have is that I don't think it's abhorent for some people to still hold sex above gender, in their own personal views. That's not to diminish much of what I just wrote above. Even if they do use sex, and not gender, that doesn't mean trans individuals shouldn't me afforded the same respect and protections.
We may disagree here, but as an example, if someone is unwilling to accept that the "It's Ma'am" person from Gamestop is actually woman then I can in no way fault them for that. That doesn't mean they should behave in any way to bring hurt onto this person, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to see that person, and recgonize that is clearly a man wearing woman's clothing.
Biden's recent cabinet pick is another example. That person is clearly transgender. That person is not a woman. Socially she might identify as one, and people should respect that. But I'm sorry, that is not a woman. It's just not.
Beyond genitalia, there's naturally occuring hormones, bone structure, the ability to birth a child, menstruation, menopause, etc. These things don't just disappear with a transition. You can't fault people for personally feeling that these are things that make up a female, and defaulting to sex over gender.
Perhaps some of us will just have to disagree on some of this. Or maybe there's something lost in the translation. Either way, I appreciate the conversation.
Basically how I feel except Wes said it much better.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Dill - 03-06-2021
(03-05-2021, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Beyond genitalia, there's naturally occuring hormones, bone structure, the ability to birth a child, menstruation, menopause, etc. These things don't just disappear with a transition. You can't fault people for personally feeling that these are things that make up a female, and defaulting to sex over gender.
Perhaps some of us will just have to disagree on some of this. Or maybe there's something lost in the translation. Either way, I appreciate the conversation.
I am not sure how one "defaults to sex over gender."
I.e., I cannot imagine such a default that is not, really,
still just a decision to recognize one (traditional) gender role over another.
In no human society is there a gender role which is simply "biological" as opposed to social/cultural.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - masonbengals fan - 03-06-2021
Brings a whole new timeline to a gender reveal party doesn't it ?
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Wes Mantooth - 03-06-2021
(03-06-2021, 10:28 AM)Dill Wrote: I am not sure how one "defaults to sex over gender."
I.e., I cannot imagine such a default that is not, really,
still just a decision to recognize one (traditional) gender role over another.
In no human society is there a gender role which simply "biological" as opposed to social/cultural.
What I find funny is that while you cannot imagine someone defaulting to sex over gender you yourself immediately defaulted to gender over sex just two sentences later.
Just because someone defaults to one over the other (in their own personal opinion) doesn't mean they would treat a trans person any differently than someone who does not.
C'mon now, this is where my "right side" of my personality starts to come out a bit. As accepting as some are on a myriad of issues they don't seem accepting of perfectly reasonable stances taken on others. (Ex: Catylyn Jenner is not actually a woman, but she identifies as one.)
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Wes Mantooth - 03-06-2021
(03-06-2021, 10:46 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Brings a whole new timeline to a gender reveal party doesn't it ?
Believe it or not, there's actually conversations happening now that say these are transphobic.
Demi Lovato was a recent celeb who jumped on the train to earn some Hollywood woke points (aka free publicity and phony ass bs) : https://sports.yahoo.com/demi-lovato-supports-message-saying-gender-reveal-parties-are-transphobic-225807477.html
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - masonbengals fan - 03-06-2021
Oh, I believe it.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - GMDino - 03-06-2021
(03-06-2021, 12:01 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Believe it or not, there's actually conversations happening now that say these are transphobic.
Demi Lovato was a recent celeb who jumped on the train to earn some Hollywood woke points (aka free publicity and phony ass bs) : https://sports.yahoo.com/demi-lovato-supports-message-saying-gender-reveal-parties-are-transphobic-225807477.html
There are a lot of "conversations" that go on.
Not all are worth having, nor do they mean anyone will force everyone to abide by them.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Dill - 03-06-2021
(03-06-2021, 11:56 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What I find funny is that while you cannot imagine someone defaulting to sex over gender you yourself immediately defaulted to gender over sex just two sentences later.
Just because someone defaults to one over the other (in their own personal opinion) doesn't mean they would treat a trans person any differently than someone who does not.
C'mon now, this is where my "right side" of my personality starts to come out a bit. As accepting as some are on a myriad of issues they don't seem accepting of perfectly reasonable stances taken on others. (Ex: Catylyn Jenner is not actually a woman, but she identifies as one.)
Well yes. Hardly odd that I default to gender over sex if my argument is one cannot do otherwise in determinations of gender policy.
We are always arguing about gendered, not biological roles, even when we are pointing to person's privates.
There really isn't another option, no matter how "natural" or biologically based gender roles appear to those socialized into them
--and that is every human being in any human society who lives to at least age three.
Nothing to infer from my point about how one individual would choose to treat a trans person as opposed to how another would.
My point is not a "take" on your stance regarding how to treat Jenner.
I would here also flag any "leftist" who, who pointing to Jenner's privates, now claimed that surgical change and hormones made her
a "female," and so some bare, natural baseline of "sex" is determining her gender.
RE: The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss - Nately120 - 03-11-2021
Side note, if liberals can just cancel people and stuff they don't like how do Hannity and Tucker Carlson still have jobs?