(08-15-2016, 10:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: biut you have not posted anything except personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.

fredtoast Wrote:The problem is that you have been brainwashed and believe anything that the greedy welathy elite tell you about the evilds of socialism.

(08-15-2016, 10:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it is a complete fabrication.  I challenege you to posta link to anything that backs up your claim.

The problem is that you have been brainwashed and believe anything that the greedy welathy elite tell you about the evilds of socialism.


We have been arguing for several pages now and I have posted many facts and specific examples to back up my claims, biut you have not posted anything except personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.

(08-15-2016, 09:34 PM)djam Wrote: When government steps in, its become less and less like capitalism and more like cronyism. Thats what you dont understand I think. The difference.

Quote:A lot of those companies made bad business decisions, but they moved for more than any reason, to escape a very oppressive government towards business in that area at the time. This great idea of having government force the rich to pay for the poor is a fairy tail, period. It has never worked ever and it never will. People will eventually take their money and leave, that happens 100% of the time, and to "force" them to stay is simply fascist. No matter what you liberals believe, and what you try to get the government to do on your behalf, there will always, always be poor people in this world. But capitalism, even the washed down cronyism crap we have now, has pulled more of them out of poverty than anything. The quality of life of poor people always goes up when things around them can thrive. But if things around them dont, then everyone is more poor and quality of life goes down. 

Quote:Where in the heck do you get your little 10% facts about business owners? That is an absurd fantasy myth that people have planted in your head so you would buy into their garbage that capitalists are greedy and need controlled and stolen from some how lol. Bernie fans are a confused bunch. i feel sad for them --so much frustration, so little idea on what to do in life except promote government handouts lol. 

(08-15-2016, 10:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: When politicians appoint friends to positions of power that's cronyism. When corporations influence politicians with bribes called "campaign contributions" that's something else.  Why do you think there are so many loopholes for corporations?

 

Why do you think I stated we need capitalism? And social programs funded by capitalism? Because I support capitalism, but I'm not naive enough to believe these companies hiring workers in Bangladesh for pennies on the dollar so Donald Trump can increase profits for his clothing line or companies that sell supplements containing 0% of the ingredients listed on the label to increase profits are suddenly going to give a shit about their employee's welfare. 


I told you; from a study conducted in Canada. It is an analogy based upon the results. I didn't feel like looking it up because if I do you're just going to ignore it anyway. But, if you insist I will look it up for you.

(08-15-2016, 09:43 PM)djam Wrote: Now let me add that a lot of people are going to try to scam people and sell a false product --snake oil salesmen types --alot like Obama, and Hillary and fredtoast lol. I happens all the time, and yes it happens in a free market, but the beauty of a free market is that you have choices, and when gov steps in, you have less or no choices. In this age right now, it is the "most" primed for real free markets than we ever have been, yet so many people are scared of it! With facebook and twitter and text, if a business was scamming people and the journalists were doing their jobs instead of taking payoffs to twist truth and not report fact, bad businesses would either have to step up, or go under really fast. You dont need a government to regulate when the consumer has all the power and those consumers can communicate instantly from all over the world. That means, people like me? I have to compete for your business. I have to step it up and try my best to offer the very best service and product and value, or else I wont do well because within a day there will be bad facebook reviews and all kinds of stuff and I will be losing my business to joe schmo down the road. But y'all are scared of that kind of thing because of the rich boogieman that barely exists lol.  

(08-15-2016, 11:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Now journalists are in on the conspiracy against capitalism, too?  These big news corporations who need eyes to watch their 24/7/365 news feed IOT sell ads to make money?  They are in on the conspiracy, too?  Holy shit!  Who isn't conspiring against capitalism?

Are food manufacturers who maintain the same size package while reducing the amount of food/package scammers? Or capitalists?

What about companies shooting up animals with hormones and antibiotics?  Scammers or capitalists?

What about pharmaceutical companies that suppress unfavorable results while only publishing favorable results?  Scammers or capitalists?

Stick with me on this one because it's gonna get technical. What about the manufacturer of drugs like xyzal? It is an antihistamine. It's generic name is levocetirizine. It is the replacement for Zyrtec or cetirizine. Xyzal you can only get by prescription and costs more because it is a brand name and the drug company has a patent. Cetirizine is generic OTC Zyrtec and is cheaper. What else is the difference?  Cetirizine is an isomer. There are L isomers and D isomers. Think of them as a left and right glove. Generic certirizine contains both isomers so it is like buying both the right and left glove combined in the same tablet. Xyzal or levocetirizine is just the L isomer or just the left glove in one tablet. Drug companies love isomers. Drug company's wet dreams are made of isomers. Why?  Because it is an easy way to extend their patents. Once the patent runs out on the drug with both isomers, just market one of the isomers which allows them to get a new patent and thus make more money. So scammer or capitalist?

What about drug companies charging hundreds of percentage points more for a drug in America than they charge for the same drug in Canada?  Scammer or capitalist?

(08-15-2016, 09:52 PM)djam Wrote: Lower wages AND way lower taxes. Fred our corporate tax rate is like 4 or 5 times what most of the Asian countries are. Do you understand how much money that means for some of these businesses? Do you not understand that unions, which were needed 100 years ago but not so much now, had workers being paid way more than they produce? How can a business operate if they are forced to pay people more than they produce? 

(08-15-2016, 09:56 PM)djam Wrote:  To hear me tell it, you would understand that big businesses, and the real bad guys who really do exist, like the vampires in the pharm industry? When they collude with government, that is NOT free market capitalism. But again that is what happens when you give the government more control over the ecomony, and socialism would give them total control. Who wants that? Dude you need to read up bad. Research what capitalism really is, read some Adam Smith. Learn what "cronyism" really is, because it IS what you are upset about. I dont think you and I disagree that things are not how they should be, but our definitions and solutions are way off for sure. I used to think just like you tho man, so i kind of know your talking points a little. The more I dug and learned, the more I realized i had been duped.

(08-15-2016, 10:21 PM)djam Wrote: fred I'd love to hear your version of the history of the unions. Did you know that in the very early coal days, the workers were actually paid fairly well? This is the part your liberal professors want to leave out of history. But you see most of the workers were German and Italian, who were all very skilled workers. Heck they barely even needed to be miners because they were such capable workers. But yes the coal companies, they did get greedy. They didnt want to pay these skilled workers who really knew what they were doing such high wages. So what did they do? They reached into communist eastern europe, and imported tons and tons of workers, totally unskilled but starving to get out of the oppression they were in. Well thats when all the bad stories of the mining towns and horrible working conditions and such started. Well eventually the mines grew and so did their problems, when those workers got together and decided to make a workers union and fight for their rights as workers --funny thing under a lot of communist ideals, which we still see today. We all know what happened after that, but my point is, these people were in backwoods appalachia, cut off from most of society in a time when the industrial revolution was moving fast. Times have changed, and despite the downfalls of the industrial revolution and the boom of large industrial corporations, we've all benefited from the wealth that was created because of capitalism ten fold. We would be screwed without it actually. 

I am a business owner. When I opened my first company I was a liberal democrat. I own a few businesses now actually, and it has just kind of grown that way. But anyway, one of my hobbies eventually turned into a demand from others and it was something that to be legal, I had to go get a contractors license. So, ok, I made some calls, figured out what I had to do and set out to do it. So the first thing was to buy like $1000 worth of books that I had to have just to even be able to take the test, because you see its an open book test because there is so much useless crap in it, there is no way any human could pass it without the books lol. So anyway, I started seeing that this whole thing was just a total joke --extortion at its finest. When I started studying and practicing for the test, and realized that there really werent but a few questions that related to the work I actually did on that stupid thing lol. The rest of them were questions that not many people would even have to know! But anyways, I did the whole thing and was later down at one of the city building applying for another construction related license to be able to work in city limits and conversation came up about the test I had just paid $1050 to study and take, and it turns out, that whole thing is just a collusion between the unions and government to help keep companies from opening business and competing with the unions for work. I'm like, wow, seriously? I am not sure but that may have been the moment I started looking into things for mysel and stopped listening to the narrative. 

(08-15-2016, 10:24 PM)djam Wrote: What is wrong with a nationalist? I honestly havent even heard that term very much in life until Trump came out. Funny how that works. 

(08-15-2016, 10:28 PM)djam Wrote: What I'm saying it the VA didnt come through with their benefits, as they havent for many others, and SS is nothing basically. So yeah he had to sell of some stuff because his medical bills were more than everything would cover. Sadly its like this for a lot of people. The VA and SS have been the least help of all honestly. Without the investments he made himself he would be completely screwed. What part of that do you not understand? 

(08-15-2016, 10:34 PM)djam Wrote: Capitalism isnt perfect, and yes I'm willing to admit that. But socialism? Its terrible, tragic and pathetic. You cant have freedom and liberty without capitalism. Period. The system ou want would fail us terribly. The coal companies and everything got worked out didnt it? The ones that havent been regulated out of business make good money now. But the unions are not needed anymore fred. They have a right to assemble, and they have a right to try to negotiate wages on behalf of their members, but in no way shape or form should they EVER, be allowed into government institutions where its the peoples hard earned money on the line. No laws twisted in their favor and nothing to do with government, period. That is the only way unions should be allowed to exist. 

(08-15-2016, 10:36 PM)djam Wrote: No its not a complete fabrication. There are people in government trying to fight against it right now! The problem with you is that you buy anything the media and their unions bosses sell you lol. Its a big problem. Like I said, I have no issue with unions existing, but not with tax dollars on the line. They have been more destructive than anything 


Only in a union state do hundreds of thousands of outdoor loving, gun owning, conservative country people vote for the likes of Obama LOL!!!! Its amazing to me and its why in my area the unions are losing members a lot more in the last few years. They are tired of being driven towards democrats and socialism. they are waking up fast. Which needs to happen. The corruption of the union needs exposed as it does for all the politicians democrat and republican alike.

(08-15-2016, 10:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I hate when that happens. I displays a total lack of ability to have a civil debate

(08-15-2016, 11:20 PM)djam Wrote: No thats not something else, thats cronyism, and its NOT capitalism or even close. The government has been doing it for years and selling it as capitalism but its not. At all lol. I cant stress that enough. If the government were to protect us from that kind of thing, without getting involved in the markets, now that is capitalism. People trading and doing business voluntarily and freely without corruption from government. 

Any study that says 10% of business owners are not greedy or good or bad or whatever, its a total opinion piece written by someone who hates capitalism lol. Seriously there is no way anyone could compile that kind of data and even be close to accurate, especially from another country lol. Think about that for a minute. Think about how many businesses exist. 


I understand that you guys have been spoon fed for years that rich people are all bad. but its simply not true. If you really believed that, you should be boycotting computers, phones, and alllll the stuff that those nasty rich people have created to meet the demand you had a part in setting out --including the NFL. Its laughable to see all these occupy type kids hang out on their trust funds, sporting all their little electric gadgets, whining about rich people. They are some of the rich folks biggest supporters. Those kids are big time consumers, they just dont want to do it with their own money lol. Its sad. Boohoo I have a $100,000 degree in russian literature or some other liberal art and cant figure out why I cant get a job. Its not fair, I shouldnt have to pay the loan that I applied for and signed, promising I'd pay it back lol!!! Goodness how pathetic. These kids are spending $4 for a starbucks while other people are drinking $1.50 gas station coffee, and the gas station coffee folks will end up paying for those goofy kids if they get what they want. Its absurd. Its backwards.

(08-15-2016, 11:50 PM)djam Wrote: first I want to apologize for calling you a name earlier. Its not like me. This topic right now is a hard one for me because Im in a mixed race family and we all have strong opinions on what has been going on. 

Do you trust Fox news? I dont either but if you think CNN and MSNBC can be trusted and arent throwing favors peoples way, you're not privy to how they all work lol. Fox, althought I know they twist things too, does do a better job of reporting current events. CNN seems to not even report on certain things anymore. I wonder why? Could something like this be why? http://www.usapoliticstoday.com/shocking-cnn-reporter-admits-obama-forced-lie-gun-head/   -now the vote Trump part I dont care about, but I understand why they say it. But her story is only one of many with these news networks. All of them make money doing favors.

The drug companies, once again are protected by the corrupt government. Dude pharm is one of the biggest scam-driven, crony capitalist industries ever, but they are protected or else they would already be done with their little sham. I dont disgaree with you about the wrongs man, its just I totally disagree about the solution. 

(08-15-2016, 10:24 PM)djam Wrote: What is wrong with a nationalist? I honestly havent even heard that term very much in life until Trump came out. Funny how that works. 

(08-16-2016, 02:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Fox News and CNN are first and foremost businesses serving their corporate masters. They cover what makes them money based upon the demographics. 

Drug companies aren't forced to charge as much as they do in America. They choose to charge that much. 

I'm not buying what you're selling. 

Not that it means anything, but I have a multiracial family. Once I was taking a phone survey and they asked my wife's race. I said, "Mixed."  My wife asked, "Mixed? Like a dog?"  She was making a joke, but it taught me a lesson. I no longer call people "mixed," but that's just me. 

(08-16-2016, 01:29 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Same applies to the corporations "colluding" with the government for their benefit. 

(08-16-2016, 01:25 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So he didn't plan and invest enough for his future. 

The medical bills are from companies trying to make a profit. The insurance companies aren't covering all his bills because they are trying to make a profit. The pharmaceutical companies are overcharging for his medicines because they are trying to make a profit. The insurance companies negotiate reduced rates from drug companies and in turn the drug companies get a more favorable tier to reduce their competitors in order to make a profit. The insurance companies hire administrative personnel to reduce or delay reimbursement to the medical providers in order to increase profits. The medical providers hire billers and coders to increase reimbursement. The big medical centers negotiate with the health insurance companies for better reimbursement rates, the insurance companies agreed if the medical center agrees to not accept policies from a competitor so they increase profits.  The insurance companies do the same but in reverse; the insurance company promises the med center other providers will be out of network so they will have a higher volume of patients if the med center will reduce their charges in order to increase profits. 

I guess none of that is related to capitalists and capitalism?