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+---- Thread: War with Iran? (/Thread-War-with-Iran)
RE: War with Iran? - fredtoast - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 04:42 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Where you get that from?
Everything I have read is they flew in the international airspace of the Gulf of Oman, except of course the Iranians claiming it was in their airspace. But of course you're going to believe them over our intel, anything to make Trump and co look worse. amirite?
I don't believe either one over the other. Maybe I need to remind you that our current National Security Advisor, John Bolton, was Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security in 2002 and a key player in the Weapons of Mass Destruction fraud.
I just opined that if the Donald did have it shot down on purpose it was a brilliant move.
RE: War with Iran? - Bengalzona - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 01:34 PM)hollodero Wrote: Trump is a genius.
Well, he has been telling us that for years now.
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 02:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump's going to attack Iran..Stupid Trump
Trump cancels attack of Iran....Stupid Trump
Yeah, he is stupid. He doesn't know ships sail in international waters and drones fly in international airspace. Nor can he get a use a simple idiom like locked and loaded. Just from one tweet.
I think the key verb in your post is "cancels" which means he authorized a retaliatory strike in the first place. But, kudos for not being that stupid. If we are going to believe his tweet and even you admit he is a habitual liar.
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 02:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Pointing out the hypocrisy of others doesn't make one a Trump supporter. I think reporting that we halted the strike was a bad idea.
Ah, so you admit the admission was stupid.
RE: War with Iran? - CKwi88 - 06-21-2019
Smart move to call off airstrikes.
Dumb move to have ordered it, and to publicly announce it.
This whole Iran saga is pretty stupid, and there's really no way that the US comes out of it looking good. By pulling out of an agreement that was both working and had significant international support, all while having no Plan B other than "let's impose crippling sanctions to **** up their economy," the US will be hard pressed to find any sort of international approval of attacking Iran.
I think Trump, or the people close to him, realize that. I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of Americans and countries not name Israel don't want war in Iran. Unless there is some sort of 9/11-esque event it will reflect very poorly on the current administration, as this is large a self-inflicted crisis.
RE: War with Iran? - Dill - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 04:24 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You missed my point.
At the time he approved of it, there wasn't a known cost attached yet. So yes, once all done and ready to roll there would be cost of lives involved.
No OtherMike. I did not miss your point.
No one worked up Trump's strike option and then went back later and factored in how many lives might be lost. While planning they knew how many American lives would be at risk, the degree of risk, how many "enemy" could be assumed present at the targets, and the effects of a successful strike. As far as anyone can tell at the moment, Trump just didn't ask when he ordered the strike.
You can be sure that at this moment there is a rank order of prepared strike options in the NSC, the Pentagon, and the Gulf, with "guestimates" of potential costs available to both Trump and commanders in the field--strike a drone, strike an AA battery, strike a ship, strike multiple ships and batteries. All these options, and flexible variations of them, and risks required for taking them under changing conditions, are there, can then be presented in real time by men with years of familiarity with US equipment, years of reviewing combat data, and years of integrating current intel to the numbers they are crunching. This capacity is one that distinguishes first world from third world militaries. (Though he's long retired, you get a glimpse of this professional process at work in B-zona's posts, as he casually runs down conditions, assets, options, costs and benefits as a matter of training.)
It is clear that the commander in chief ordered an action, then thought about it some more, then changed his mind in real time. And all down the chain of command below him are people trained to pull together all necessary questions and foreseeable concerns BEFORE issuing decisions which put lives on the line, so that reactions in real time are trained, informed reactions. Now they must all act under command of someone without that capacity, who does not understand that capacity as a goal and standard.
RE: War with Iran? - bfine32 - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 05:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Ah, so you admit the admission was stupid.
Of course it was stupid. Either do it or don't.
RE: War with Iran? - Dill - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 05:08 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Smart move to call off airstrikes.
Dumb move to have ordered it, and to publicly announce it.
This whole Iran saga is pretty stupid, and there's really no way that the US comes out of it looking good. By pulling out of an agreement that was both working and had significant international support, all while having no Plan B other than "let's impose crippling sanctions to **** up their economy," the US will be hard pressed to find any sort of international approval of attacking Iran.
I think Trump, or the people close to him, realize that. I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of Americans and countries not name Israel don't want war in Iran. Unless there is some sort of 9/11-esque event it will reflect very poorly on the current administration, as this is large a self-inflicted crisis.
That's it in a nutshell.
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 02:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: Glad to help!
First he starts by blaming Obama:
....Death to America. I terminated deal, which was not even ratified by Congress, and imposed strong sanctions. They are a much weakened nation today than at the beginning of my Presidency, when they were causing major problems throughout the Middle East. Now they are Bust!....
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 21, 2019
Then he says they were "cocked and loaded" when he stopped the entire thing.
....proportionate to shooting down an unmanned drone. I am in no hurry, our Military is rebuilt, new, and ready to go, by far the best in the world. Sanctions are biting & more added last night. Iran can NEVER have Nuclear Weapons, not against the USA, and not against the WORLD!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 21, 2019
Now the phrase: "We were cocked & loaded to retaliate last night on 3 different sights when I asked, how many will die." makes it pretty clear that he didn't ask or didn't know (maybe didn't hear?) the possible death toll until they were ready to strike.
But there will always be those ready, willing and able to make sure what Trump specifically says is not what he said or meant.
LOL
And he takes credit for having rebuilt (past tense) the military. In less than three years. He should give himself a Medal of Freedom.
RE: War with Iran? - bfine32 - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 05:08 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Smart move to call off airstrikes.
Dumb move to have ordered it, and to publicly announce it.
This whole Iran saga is pretty stupid, and there's really no way that the US comes out of it looking good. By pulling out of an agreement that was both working and had significant international support, all while having no Plan B other than "let's impose crippling sanctions to **** up their economy," the US will be hard pressed to find any sort of international approval of attacking Iran.
I think Trump, or the people close to him, realize that. I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of Americans and countries not name Israel don't want war in Iran. Unless there is some sort of 9/11-esque event it will reflect very poorly on the current administration, as this is large a self-inflicted crisis.
I don't think Saudi Arabia would mind a war with Iran too much. But the rest is pretty profound.
Of course all this changes if they attacked (more) ships in the straight or shot down a bunch more stuff in International Air Space
RE: War with Iran? - Dill - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 04:48 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I doubt if anything he tweeted is true. Just wanted to show the world he has more wisdom than King Solomon. Next will be the obligatory explanations of what he really meant now that the tweet didn't play out like it did in his head.
Starve a cold . . . feed a fever?
Seems like he impulsively ordered an escalating strike to "teach them a lesson." Then maybe realized they might have to escalate further. At which point there is full blown war and Vietnam/Iraq quagmire.
So he cancelled the strike.
He could have kept his mouth shut, or simply lied and said no such strike was ordered. Trump supporters would have believed him.
Upon realizing how bad it looked, he had to tweet storm imaginary feelings/decisions, and tacked on a lame story about concern for lives lost. Again, after the fact.
Still, Iran better watch out! Or they get some of this:
Warning you Iran . . . . next time could be for real. You are making a big mistake! Dare you to try that again.
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 03:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Welp...DJT has changed the story already.
Trump told Chuck Todd one of his "sir" tall tales while explaining why he decided at the last minute not to strike Iran. pic.twitter.com/W3okA1LVpj
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) June 21, 2019
Can anyone verify that the "generals" wouldn't have known any of this info prior to "everything being ready to go"?
Drone. Plane. Whatever you want to call it.
LOL
RE: War with Iran? - fredtoast - 06-21-2019
I think this will be a great chance for Trump to display the value of the new alliances he has built since becoming President.
I mean, I'm sure Vladimir will have his back when standing up to Iran, right?
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 05:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course it was stupid. Either do it or don't.
(06-21-2019, 02:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump's going to attack Iran..Stupid Trump
Trump cancels attack of Iran....Stupid Trump
So I'll put you down for . . . Stupid Trump.
Well played, sir. Well played.
You know, they say the sound of Trump's voice causes conservatives to lose 50 IQ points. I don't know. You tell me.
RE: War with Iran? - bfine32 - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 06:30 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So I'll put you down for . . . Stupid Trump.Sure if you're keeping tally put me down in the "It was stupid to announce the cancellation". Which, of course. is not the same as saying It was stupid to cancel the attack.
Well played, sir. Well played.
You know, they say the sound of Trump's voice causes conservatives to lose 50 IQ points. I don't know. You tell me.
But you most likely already knew that with your full allotment of Liberal IQ points.
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure if you're keeping tally put me down in the "It was stupid to announce the cancellation". Which, of course. is not the same as saying It was stupid to cancel the attack.
But you most likely already knew that with your full allotment of Liberal IQ points.
Ah, so . . .
(06-21-2019, 02:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Stupid Trump
BTW, IQ points don't have political idealogies therefore they are neither liberal or conservative.
RE: War with Iran? - bfine32 - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 07:10 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Ah, so . . .
BTW, IQ points don't have political idealogies therefore they are neither liberal or conservative.
For the 2nd time: Yes, I said Trump was stupid for announcing his plan to cancel, but of course that wasn't one of the 2 options in listed in the post you quote.
It's just one person that holds a certain political ideology loses 50 points. I wonder if those points are lost in the Verbal Comprehension element. You know the element that tests if you can understand what you read.
RE: War with Iran? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 02:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump's going to attack Iran..Stupid Trump
Trump cancels attack of Iran....Stupid Trump
(06-21-2019, 07:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: For the 2nd time: Yes, I said Trump was stupid for announcing his plan to cancel, but of course that wasn't one of the 2 options in listed in the post you quote.
You only listed one conclusion. And you concur with the only conclusion you listed.
Quote:It's just one person that holds a certain political ideology loses 50 points. I wonder if those points are lost in the Verbal Comprehension element. You know the element that tests if you can understand what you read.
That's what they say. And that's why I wrote, "I don't know. You tell me." Because I didn't say it. They did. And you can't quote me saying it. So don't try to blame for for something they said. Understand?
RE: War with Iran? - hollodero - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 07:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: For the 2nd time: Yes, I said Trump was stupid for announcing his plan to cancel, but of course that wasn't one of the 2 options in listed in the post you quote.
while the post he quoted was yours, where you tried to make the point that those liberal simpletons consider Trump stupid no matter what he does. But also, yeah he actually did something stupid, you just didn't mention it in that proofing post of yours. That bends one's mind.Btw. let me put my stance this way:
(06-21-2019, 03:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: WTS, we can all applaud his care for humanity and second thoughts. Right?
I'm glad about this, sure.
I think demanding applause - just for not following through on a bad idea - is a bit much though. I usually don't applaud people just for not doing something awful, no matter how close those people were to actually doing something awful.
RE: War with Iran? - bfine32 - 06-21-2019
(06-21-2019, 07:58 PM)hollodero Wrote:
Btw. let me put my stance this way:
I'm glad about this, sure.
I think demanding applause - just for not following through on a bad idea - is a bit much though. I usually don't applaud people just for not doing something awful, no matter how close those people were to actually doing something awful.
Your, bent mind aside: I didn't assert simpletons; I asserted hypocrites.
I'm not even saying a retaliatory strike was a bad idea or not to strike was a good idea. I'm simply saying his announcement to cancel the strike was a stupid thing to do. I'm not one of those bitching when he was going to strike and now bitching that he didn't strike, but anyone who is doing so fits the bill of hypocrite.