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House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Printable Version

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RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - TheLeonardLeap - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 02:21 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Ok I guess. Yes. They are guilty of doing their job.

The way I see it. They never voted to put a proven threat to our constitution as #3 in presidential succession. They never voted for the rules to make him easily removable. And they never voted to keep him in power.

I guess we could say well if the people would have never built that great big beautiful house little Donny and his friends wouldn't have been able to burn it down. So I guess we have to put some of the blame on the people for building it if we are playing by your rules.

We as a country have in the past and still do now routinely allow bad people to maintain power around the world when the alternative to them being in power is worse people being in power. If we were to take action to remove those bad people, we can't say that the worse people's actions once they are subsequently empowered have absolutely nothing to do with us. It's not like we are directly or massively responsible for those worse people's actions, but we also can't say we are completely unrelated either. That's not my rules, that's just reality.

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It's still a Republican shitshow of mostly their own doing, and I sure hope that the Gaetz/Jordan side doesn't come out on top of the Republicans internal fighting, for the sake of this country's stability (and for the sake of common sense). I just thought it was funny that the left side of this board seem to think that their folks have zero connection to events transpiring. Lol

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Belsnickel - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 02:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It's still a Republican shitshow of mostly their own doing, and I sure hope that the Gaetz/Jordan side doesn't come out on top of the Republicans internal fighting, for the sake of this country's stability (and for the sake of common sense). I just thought it was funny that the left side of this board seem to think that their folks have zero connection to events transpiring. Lol

Here is how I would describe the Democratic part in this mess. The Republican caucus was looking to essentially assassinate McCarthy like the Roman senators assassinated Julius Caesar. The Democrats saw this and helped smuggle in the blades, the tools to do the job. They egged on the situation in the hopes to reap the benefits of the discord within the GOP caucus.

What we have to hope doesn't happen is what happened to the Roman Republic in the wake of Caesar's death. I know that this elevates McCarthy's role, but keep in mind that for those that study democratic theory there have been some serious warning signs for well over a decade regarding cracks in our framework.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 08:40 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here is how I would describe the Democratic part in this mess. The Republican caucus was looking to essentially assassinate McCarthy like the Roman senators assassinated Julius Caesar. The Democrats saw this and helped smuggle in the blades, the tools to do the job. They egged on the situation in the hopes to reap the benefits of the discord within the GOP caucus.

What we have to hope doesn't happen is what happened to the Roman Republic in the wake of Caesar's death. I know that this elevates McCarthy's role, but keep in mind that for those that study democratic theory there have been some serious warning signs for well over a decade regarding cracks in our framework.

I think that's a rather apt analogy.  As to your second point, I have a hard time reconciling it.  We are a people with a long tradition of personal freedom, sometimes to the point of our detriment.  I have a hard time seeing how an authoritarian government could usurp our current system without a tremendous pushback.  As a fellow 2A guy, I don't see you or I, or most of us going along with a totalitarian system, regardless of its ideological bent.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 12:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As a fellow 2A guy, I don't see you or I, or most of us going along with a totalitarian system, regardless of its ideological bent.

Interesting.  I mostly believe everyone 2A or otherwise is likely to just sit around and do nothing and wait for someone else to star the war, but it's interesting to think where the typical 2A advocate sits on the yay or nay side of this coin.  If there is some sort of conflict, both sides are going to be the ones who believe they are fighting against totalitarianism, so it's hard to say.

Methinks a lot of people would accept and even fight for totalitarianism as long as someone can help them convince themselves it's for the best and/or the other side is the totalitarian one.  I know this goes beyond Trump vs Biden, but right now aren't both sides saying the other is really the fascist side?

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 12:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Interesting.  I mostly believe everyone 2A or otherwise is likely to just sit around and do nothing and wait for someone else to star the war, but it's interesting to think where the typical 2A advocate sits on the yay or nay side of this coin.  If there is some sort of conflict, both sides are going to be the ones who believe they are fighting against totalitarianism, so it's hard to say.

Methinks a lot of people would accept and even fight for totalitarianism as long as someone can help them convince themselves it's for the best and/or the other side is the totalitarian one.  I know this goes beyond Trump vs Biden, but right now aren't both sides saying the other is really the fascist side?

Oh, I absolutely think you could get people fighting for a totalitarian side if they believe the alternative is worse.  But what happens when said conflict is over?  Since we're essentially talking about one, revolutions are notoriously difficult to control and often end up far from their original goal.  I sincerely hope we never find out the answer, but I strongly believe the deep current and history of personal freedom inherent in this country would prevent a permanent totalitarian system from forming.  We aren't the Germans of the 20's, and 30's nor are we the Russians of any time ever.  Both of those populations had/have zero history or experience with the type of freedom we see as our birthright.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 12:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, I absolutely think you could get people fighting for a totalitarian side if they believe the alternative is worse.  But what happens when said conflict is over?  Since we're essentially talking about one, revolutions are notoriously difficult to control and often end up far from their original goal.  I sincerely hope we never find out the answer, but I strongly believe the deep current and history of personal freedom inherent in this country would prevent a permanent totalitarian system from forming.  We aren't the Germans of the 20's, and 30's nor are we the Russians of any time ever.  Both of those populations had/have zero history or experience with the type of freedom we see as our birthright.

I don't think many people in this country understand or even care about freedom outside of their own freedom to do what they want.  The word freedom, like patriotism, or Christian, and so on and so forth has been marketed to the point of perversion from it's actual meaning.  

Everyone loves "freedom" and will fight for "freedom" insofar as they believe that freedom means what they want is free and what they don't want isn't free because it's bad and we all love freedom, but we all have certain freedoms we want to see restricted or revoked because they are bad.  Ergo, we can all still love freedom.

Again, I just think we are easily led into fighting against freedom because we are led to believe it's the right thing to do.  We have a level of "Yes I love freedom of course, but...."

Do I love freedom?  I guess.  Can I list the number of freedoms I don't agree with that I'd take a bullet to the skull to protect?  That's less of a fun conversation and one you don't hear so often.  So I get what you are saying, but I also think people in this country are personally free and individualized to the point where we'd see very few people saying it is right to die for a freedom they don't support or the freedom of someone else to do something they don't do or don't support.

God help me for sounding like an old curmudgeon, but I think we've taken freedom and democracy for granted to the point where we won't know what we have until it's gone and even then a lot of people would convince themselves they fought for the right side, regardless. 

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - pally - 10-24-2023

its down to Majority Whip Tom Emmer vs LA Rep Mike Johnson. They are on round 5 of voting.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 12:53 PM)pally Wrote: its down to Majority Whip Tom Emmer vs LA Rep Mike Johnson.  They are on round 5 of voting.

Swell, I'm just going to not google either of them and assume everything is going to be fine.  I have a suspicion neither of them will admit who the actual president is, though.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - GMDino - 10-24-2023

Why didn't the 49ers stop him!!  They are at fault too!  Ninja

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RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - pally - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 01:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Swell, I'm just going to not google either of them and assume everything is going to be fine.  I have a suspicion neither of them will admit who the actual president is, though.

now to see if Emmer can even get close to 217.  The Freedom Caucus isn't part of his fan club

There will be another private vote to see if he can garner the votes before taking it to the floor...or so they say

  

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

Is the freedom caucus going to crack? I don't see why they would. Are democrats going to vote for Emmer? Is he at least somewhat left of McCarthy and Jordan?

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - pally - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 01:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is the freedom caucus going to crack?  I  don't see why they would.  Are democrats going to vote for Emmer?  Is he at least somewhat left of McCarthy and Jordan?

apparently, there are at least 10 holdouts after the roll call confirmation vote.  So again we wait and see. They know who is in the way so the lobbying begins. Knowing how secretive things are in the House of Representatives, I am confident we will know exactly who is voting against Emmer pretty quickly

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 01:54 PM)pally Wrote: apparently, there are at least 10 hold outs after the confirmation vote.  So again we wait and see

Emmer is arguably the most moderate of the nine candidates—he was the only one who voted in favor of legislation to federally recognize same sex marriage last year, he supports aid for Ukraine and he voted alongside Democrats and a handful of Republicans in September for the short-term budget to avert a government shutdown.



Welp, I assume this is the most moderate guy we're going to get so at least some democrats should cave because the guy voted to certify the 2020 election.  The bar is that low.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - pally - 10-24-2023

Emmer is toast...most of the no's were Freedom caucus members...though surprisingly, Matt Gaetz voted for him



RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 02:34 PM)pally Wrote: Emmer is toast...most of the no's were Freedom caucus members...though surprisingly, Matt Gaetz voted for him


Did this actually go to a floor vote?  I'm actually surprised a few democrats didn't save Emmer from his own party if so.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - pally - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 02:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Did this actually go to a floor vote?  I'm actually surprised a few democrats didn't save Emmer from his own party if so.

no...this was the result of the private roll call vote of just Republicans to show how close or far to 217 Emmer was.  He isn't close enough to get Democrats to help...at least not yet

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - pally - 10-24-2023

and down goes Emmer...he has withdrawn his name from consideration. Trump laid down the hammer during the ensueing hours and the members of the Freedom Caucus hardened their stance So keep that popcorn handy because they are back to the drawing board.

There is only 1 person who is even close to 217 and that's Hakeem Jeffries.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - NATI BENGALS - 10-24-2023

And Emmer drops out. What did that last a few hours?


Think they are learning any good lessons for when a 3rd political party starts to gain seats and no party has the votes to pick a speaker down party lines?

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Belsnickel - 10-24-2023

(10-24-2023, 12:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think that's a rather apt analogy.  As to your second point, I have a hard time reconciling it.  We are a people with a long tradition of personal freedom, sometimes to the point of our detriment.  I have a hard time seeing how an authoritarian government could usurp our current system without a tremendous pushback.  As a fellow 2A guy, I don't see you or I, or most of us going along with a totalitarian system, regardless of its ideological bent.

I wish I could have your optimism. The issue is that the rhetoric we are seeing out of the MAGA movement is shockingly similar to the rhetoric that came out of fascist movements in the early twentieth century. You could quite literally pull quotes from that era and in contemporary politics and you would have a hard time discerning them. There were fascists embedded in our federal government and plots to overthrow our government were in motion prior to our involvement in WWII. What saved us then was our people's belief in democratic principles. It was our belief that by voting we could make a difference and effect change.

This is why those that study democratic theory look at what is going on right now and have serious concern. What prevented the demise of our government is no longer there. The propaganda efforts have been fruitful in this where we even had Trump in New Hampshire telling people "So we have to be careful, you gotta get out there and you got to watch those voters. You don't have to vote, don't worry about voting. The voting, we got plenty of votes, you gotta watch." That is the sort of language that concerns democratic theorists and it only the most recent example of efforts from the MAGA movement that are very anti-democratic.

I point all of this out to say that I sincerely fear that a large portion of the 2A movement is drinking this propaganda up. What I hope is that there will be a turning point where these people will see the dangers before it is too late, but I think it is more of a frog in boiling water scenario. I joke around about the whole Gadsden/thin-blue-line paradox that I see constantly, but that sort of cognitive dissonance truly is a display of the sort of concern I have with the modern 2A movement.

Our country is an anomaly given how long our democratic government has existed, and the track record for regaining a democratic government once it is lost ain't great. I try to keep it (relatively) light hearted in here, but this is my sincere position on all of this. I am 90% certain that I will see the fall of democracy in this country during my lifetime.

RE: House Speaker Ongoing Melodrama - Nately120 - 10-24-2023

Had to drop out because he was dangerously close to getting enough bi partisan support to win, perhaps.