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+---- Thread: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building (/Thread-150-Armed-Militia-Members-Take-Over-Federal-Building)
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - fredtoast - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 02:41 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Did you see the part where he charged the Officer that has been earlier reported and what exactly was I "wanting" to see?
Sorry, but I never heard anyone claim that he "charged the officer".
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - BmorePat87 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 10:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I never heard anyone claim that he "charged the officer".
A passenger of the car behind his said he did. A passenger of his car said he got out yelling "shoot me, shoot me".
I did notice he stopped and reach down towards his waist just prior to being shot. That alone seems like enough.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - bfine32 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 02:49 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I didn't see the part where he was on his knees with his hands in the air or prostrate on the ground when he was shot either. Like I've said to you guys on many other occasions, eyewitness testimony is usually useless and it's always best to reserve judgment until actual facts are available.
Who the hell said "He was on his knees with his hands in the air or prostrate on the ground when he was shot."?
No doubt and IMO I'm one of the few waiting on facts.
Let me provide you with scenario and rate it in realm of possibility:
Guy gets out hand raised. He has an officer both in front and behind him. The officer in front sees his weapon (either open carry or tucked into waistband) He instructs guy to throw down weapon, guy reaches to throw down weapon, officer behind interprets this as an aggressive act and fires.
Is that what happened? Who knows, we don't have all the facts.
Don't know what else folks are looking for; I've always said if this situation led to violence that the occupiers take the full blame. But that's just me bending over backwards to excuse them.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - bfine32 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 10:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I never heard anyone claim that he "charged the officer".
Nobody ever accused you over being overly observant
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - BmorePat87 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Who the hell said "He was on his knees with his hands in the air or prostrate on the ground when he was shot."?
the Bundys
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - fredtoast - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Who the hell said "He was on his knees with his hands in the air or prostrate on the ground when he was shot."?
No doubt and IMO I'm one of the few waiting on facts.
Let me provide you with scenario and rate it in realm of possibility:
Guy guys out hand raised. He has an officer both in front and behind him. The officer in front sees his weapon (either open carry or tucked into waistband) He instructs guy to throw down weapon, guy reaches to throw down weapon, officer behind interprets this as an aggressive act and fires.
Is that what happened? Who knows, we don't have all the facts.
Don't know what else folks are looking for; I've always said if this situation led to violence that the occupiers take the full blame. But that's just me bending over backwards to excuse them.
I am sure the officers were aware that this man had sworn that he would rather died than go into police custody.
the lentghs you are going to defend these criminals is comical. Just becase they are the same color as you you can not see any difference between an old woman sitting peacefully on a park bench and a group of armed men breaking the law and swearing that they would use their weapons against law enforcement officers trying to enforce the law.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - fredtoast - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Who the hell said "He was on his knees with his hands in the air or prostrate on the ground when he was shot."?
Cliven Bundy said he had his hands raised when he was shot.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - bfine32 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: the Bundys
I did see where they said he had his hands in the air when shot.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - fredtoast - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Don't know what else folks are looking for; I've always said if this situation led to violence that the occupiers take the full blame.
Yet, even after they attempt to run over law enforcement officers with their vehicle you are still waiting for some proof that they did anything violent.
And you still swear that it is justified to draw a weapon on a law officer who is trying to enforce the law because that is an "attack".
If I had been a law officer at that road block then he never would have made it out of the car alive. as soon as he tried to run me over i would have opened fire.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - bfine32 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am sure the officers were aware that this man had sworn that he would rather died than go into police custody.
the lentghs you are going to defend these criminals is comical. Just becase they are the same color as you you can not see any difference between an old woman sitting peacefully on a park bench and a group of armed men breaking the law and swearing that they would use their weapons against law enforcement officers trying to enforce the law.
Where in the hell have I defended these guys?
I have just chosen (like most objective people) not to label them as terrorists and showed an example of why it is silly to do so.
These men were sitting peacefully in the middle of nowhere; not across the street from the White House.
The comical (read sad) part is you and others (luckily I've only seen much of it on this board) trying to equate them to those that are carrying our horrendous acts of terror worldwide. It is shameful.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - GMDino - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am sure the officers were aware that this man had sworn that he would rather died than go into police custody.
the lentghs you are going to defend these criminals is comical. Just becase they are the same color as you you can not see any difference between an old woman sitting peacefully on a park bench and a group of armed men breaking the law and swearing that they would use their weapons against law enforcement officers trying to enforce the law.
Honestly.
I have never seen Larry go off the rails like this on a subject. Usually he has his standard method of twisting arguments and "discussing" small points. But with this he's very defensive. Even cursing...which is unlike his character.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Let me provide you with scenario and rate it in realm of possibility:
Guy gets out hand raised. He has an officer both in front and behind him. The officer in front sees his weapon (either open carry or tucked into waistband) He instructs guy to throw down weapon, guy reaches to throw down weapon, officer behind interprets this as an aggressive act and fires.
Is that what happened? Who knows, we don't have all the facts.
I can tell you 100% that your scenario did not occur. Unless the weapon is already in the suspect's hand you never, ever, allow them to reach for it or place it in their hand. You prone the suspect out and disarm them yourself with another officer covering you. This is done for two reasons; 1. so as not to let a previously unarmed suspect arm themselves and 2. to prevent the exact scenario you describe from occurring.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - bfine32 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yet, even after they attempt to run over law enforcement officers with their vehicle you are still waiting for some proof that they did anything violent.
And you still swear that it is justified to draw a weapon on a law officer who is trying to enforce the law because that is an "attack".
WTF are you talking about?
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - bfine32 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:22 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can tell you 100% that your scenario did not occur. Unless the weapon is already in the suspect's hand you never, ever, allow them to reach for it or place it in their hand. You prone the suspect out and disarm them yourself with another officer covering you. This is done for two reasons; 1. so as not to let a previously unarmed suspect arm themselves and 2. to prevent the exact scenario you describe from occurring.
Suppose we come from different worlds, as we have the subject disarm in plain site, but would not do so until fully covered. of course i'm used to dealing with terrorists. We remove nothing from them for the fear of HBED
But I'll take your 100% knowledge of what the Federal Agents did
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - fredtoast - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:25 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Suppose we come from different worlds, as we have the subject disarm in plain site, but would not do so until fully covered. of course i'm used to dealing with terrorists. We remove nothing from them for the fear of HBED
But I'll take your 100% knowledge of what the Federal Agents did
So you would let terrorists get his weapon in his hand instead of doing it yourself? You know zero about law enforcement tactics. that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - fredtoast - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:23 AM)bfine32 Wrote: WTF are you talking about?
I am talking about you claiming that if this ended in violence you would hold the occupiers to blame, but now that it has ended in violence you still refuse to hold them to blame.
You have seen the video where this guy says that he will aim his gun back at anyone who aims a gun at him.
You have heard him say that he would ratrhyer die than go into custody.
You have seen him try to run over officers at a roadblock.
Yet you still refuse to blame him for getting shot until you "see more evidence".
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:25 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Suppose we come from different worlds, as we have the subject disarm in plain site, but would not do so until fully covered. of course i'm used to dealing with terrorists. We remove nothing from them for the fear of HBED
But I'll take your 100% knowledge of what the Federal Agents did
Here's the thing. If you work in a certain profession you have more knowledge about it then someone who does not. I can state, without a doubt, that your scenario did not occur as it would be in direct contradiction to normal tactics and everything you're taught as an LEO. It's analogous to hiking the ball to the QB and then the QB stands there, hands the ball to the nearest defender and then the whole team watches while the defender scores a TD. It just isn't done.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - BmorePat87 - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 11:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I did see where they said he had his hands in the air when shot.
I'm looking and it seems like no news source can say who said that, just that it spread on social media. Likely someone went with the "shot with his hands up" lie and just embellished it on social media and others picked up on it.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - BmorePat87 - 01-29-2016
this is Finicum immediately before he is shot.
![[Image: v5QCRss.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/v5QCRss.jpg)
After the third frame, he turns to his left and is shot by an officer/agent coming out of the woods.
RE: 150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building - michaelsean - 01-29-2016
No sympathy for that dude. You wanna walk around with weapons, and dare the police to shoot you, that's on you.
I'm all for people being armed if they choose, but if they want to play chicken with the cops, they are going to lose every time.