(02-12-2018, 09:55 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's not a semantical argument. The two houses operate differently.

The House banned filibusters over a century ago. Pelosi spoke that long because Republicans allowed her to as minority leader. At the end of the day, a vote was going to occur in which they only need a simple majority to pass whether Nancy wanted it to happen or not. 

The Senate has actual filibusters that cannot be stopped unless there's a cloture vote. You need 60 votes in order to force that. Democrats didn't have that in 2010 when they passed the DREAM act in the House and tried to bring it for a vote in the Senate.

Likewise, Republicans have had issue with getting legislation passed as they do not have a 60 vote majority. It would be intellectually dishonest to suggest they have done nothing to get immigration legislation passed or that they did nothing to get a budget passed before the shutdown simply because they couldn't force a cloture vote. 

(02-12-2018, 10:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Guess we can just say the Dems accomplished nothing; while in the majority. Why aren't the GOP still speaking on that filibuster? 

But I'm sure we can all agree if the GOP gets a DACA compromise passed while in the majority they did accomplished more on immigration than the Dems did while they were in charge and at the end of the day that was POTUS' point. 

(02-12-2018, 10:16 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I appreciate your desire to rewrite his tweets to make him sound somewhat correct, but he didn't say that the Republicans did more. He didn't say the Democrats accomplished nothing. 

He said the Republicans want to fix DACA more (that's a subjective statement so we can't say he's wrong), that the Demcrats decided to do nothing (that's patently false, they brought up the Dream Act multiple times and tried to pass it, ultimately getting it done via an executive order), and that the Democrats only want to use DACA as a campaign issue (which is a subjective statement but one that is easily shot down by just looking at the actions of Democrats over the last 10 years). 

(02-12-2018, 10:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Guess we'll just disagree on the term "decide" being the seminal point. 

"I wanna pass this bill"

"We are going to resist your attempts"

"OK, I decide not to pursue it"

So decide could most likely be the most apt word to use. The fact that they let it go, shows they decided to do nothing; as nothing was done in Congress. 

Quote:I do appreciate your attempts to downplay his desire to get something done on illegal immigration.

Quote:Something other administrations have just kicked down the road.

(02-12-2018, 10:42 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: They didn't decide to not pursue it. The vote was in late December. The vote failed and the session ended. In the next session, Reid reintroduced it. The House, now controlled by the GOP, didn't let their version get out of committee, killing it.

In 2012, Obama enacted DACA as an alternative since no legislation on it would pass a GOP controlled House.

So whether or not we agree on how to cherry pick Trump's tweet to make him sound partially correct, your assertion that Democrats gave up on the Dream Act is wrong.



 

This thread is about his ignorance. If you want to focus on his immigration policy, feel free to make a new thread every week as it changes. 


I mean Obama did enact DACA and also saw a historic high in deportations that accomplished his goal of reducing recidivism. But, facts...

(02-12-2018, 10:42 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1) They didn't decide to not pursue it. The vote was in late December. The vote failed and the session ended. In the next session, Reid reintroduced it. The House, now controlled by the GOP, didn't let their version get out of committee, killing it.

2) In 2012, Obama enacted DACA as an alternative since no legislation on it would pass a GOP controlled House.

So whether or not we agree on how to cherry pick Trump's tweet to make him sound partially correct, your assertion that Democrats gave up on the Dream Act is wrong.



 

3) This thread is about his ignorance. If you want to focus on his immigration policy, feel free to make a new thread every week as it changes. 


I mean Obama did enact DACA, increased border security to their highest levels ever, and also saw a historic high in deportations that accomplished his goal of reducing recidivism. But, facts...

(02-12-2018, 11:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1) Sounds like a whole lot of excuses for accomplishing nothing in 2 years. Trump's been in office just over a year; we'll see what we get. So use what ever phrase you want: decide, do, accomplish,.... none of it changes the facts that nothing got done in the 2 years they control Congress and the White House.

Quote:2) So Obama passed an Executive Order, that defied law, in his 8 years as POTUS, I must retract my assertion that they accomplished nothing

Quote:3) I agree that this thread is about ignorance and moreover, it is quite petty in nature. 

(02-12-2018, 09:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with being critical of POTUS; as long as the intent is constructive, as I have done numerous times. However, the OP, and the usual subjects, falls on the side of petty.

(02-12-2018, 11:28 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I think petty is sticking your fingers in your ears arguing semantics after displaying ignorance over the difference between a filibuster in the House and the Senate or changing your argument every other post but that's just my opinion. 

(02-12-2018, 11:40 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This might just be the fallout of electing a man who's biggest selling point is that he has no political experience or tact . I fully expect the right wing to criticize everything president Oprah does, should it come to that eventually.  

(02-12-2018, 11:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can see where this is going; good luck with the thread. It seems Nati and Dino have your back; they're pretty open-minded on these types of things.

(02-12-2018, 11:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm sure many will, but let's hope there are some rational folks in the equation. Personally, I will "support" whomever America elects. 

(02-12-2018, 11:48 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So we don't want to talk about Obama's record high deportations or border security levels and how that was just kicking the can down the road?


Well this is no fun

(02-13-2018, 02:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Like when he manipulated the numbers just as the bush’s and Clinton did before him.   So they could basically do nothing and let these people stay I illegal limbo.

Thankfully for these poor bastards Trump was elected so they can at least know where they stand.

(02-12-2018, 11:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm sure many will, but let's hope there are some rational folks in the equation. Personally, I will "support" whomever America elects. 

(02-12-2018, 11:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can see where this is going; good luck with the thread. It seems Nati and Dino have your back; they're pretty open-minded on these types of things.

(02-13-2018, 09:28 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Gotcha, it was all fake. How can I argue with a claim like that?

Quote:Trump falsely claims his administration has deported half of MS-13 gang members


President Donald Trump recently claimed that in the five months he’s been in office, his administration has deported about half of MS-13 gang members, one of the largest criminal organizations in the United States around since the 1980s.

Trump singled out enforcement efforts against the MS-13 gang during an immigration roundtable discussion on two House bills written to withhold fundsfrom jurisdictions that shield immigrants and to impose stricter penalties for criminal immigrants who re-enter the country. 

MS-13 gang members are "bad people, and we've gotten many of them out already. You know, we're pretty much at the 50 percent mark," Trump said June 28. "We're getting them out as fast as we can get them out, and we're freeing up towns." 

Trump’s comment caught our attention since this is one of the most notorious gangs in the country. Is he halfway there in deporting thousands of MS-13 gang members?

Not exactly.

There’s an estimated 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the United States. The latest data shows immigration officials have deported 2,798 gang members in fiscal year 2017 — that’s members of all gangs and includes several months when former President Barack Obama was in office.

MS-13 in the United States
Trump’s June 28 remarks weren’t the first he’s made about MS-13 and his administration’s efforts against them. At a rally this month in Iowa, he told supporters his administration was "moving them out of the country by the thousands."

In April, he falsely tweeted that Obama’s policies allowed MS-13 to form across the United States, and again that his administration was removing them fast. But multiple experts told us there is no evidence Obama’s policies caused the gang’s growth in the country.

MS-13 grew out of poor Los Angeles neighborhoods where many refugees from civil wars in El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua lived in the 1980s.

It’s grown into an international criminal organization with more than 30,000 members worldwide, the Justice Department said in an April 18, 2017, fact sheet.

It’s difficult to peg down exactly how many MS-13 gang members there are in the United States.

Trump’s Justice Department in April said there were more than 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the United States.
FactCheck.org noted that for years the 10,000 figure has been a consistent estimate.

MS-13 deportations under Trump
We asked the White House for evidence backing Trump’s claim, but did not get an on-the-record response.

A specific number of MS-13 gang members deported is not available because officials don’t track removals by specific gang, Dani Bennett, spokesperson for U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement previously told us. (The FBI says there’s around 33,000 violent street gangs, motorcycle gangs, and prison gangs criminally active in the U.S. and Puerto Rico — with an estimated 1.4 million members.) 

But ICE "does specifically target MS-13 members for arrest and removal on the basis of their immigration violations," Bennett said, adding that deportations include foreign fugitives wanted for crimes committed abroad and who are removable under U.S. immigration law.

So far in fiscal year 2017, ICE said it has removed 2,798 gang members.

Even if all of them were MS-13 gang members, that would still be short of Trump’s claim that "we're pretty much at the 50 percent mark" — since the Justice Department in April said there’s an estimated 10,000 gang members in the country.

Also, fiscal year 2017 started Oct. 1, 2016, when Obama was still in office.

Our ruling
Trump said, "We're pretty much at the 50 percent mark" on deportations of MS-13 gang members.

Trump’s Justice Department has said there’s an estimated 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the United States. 

The latest available data from ICE shows 2,798 gang members have been removed in fiscal year 2017. But that includes members of all gangs, not just MS-13. Even if all were MS-13, that would not be half of the estimated 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the country. And fiscal year 2017 includes more than three months that Obama was in office.

Trump’s statement is not accurate. We rate it False.

(02-12-2018, 10:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But I'm sure we can all agree if the GOP gets a DACA compromise passed while in the majority they did accomplished more on immigration than the Dems did while they were in charge and at the end of the day that was POTUS' point. 

(02-13-2018, 09:28 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Gotcha, it was all fake. How can I argue with a claim like that?

(02-13-2018, 02:52 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well if you want to stand behind obama’s Deportations then you obviously have no issue with Trump continuing them.  

Glad to have you on board.