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+---- Thread: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials (/Thread-IRS-won-t-require-NRA-other-groups-to-disclose-donors-to-tax-officials)
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - bfine32 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 12:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Of course it is. These groups maintain their status by following certain procedures with their donations. Determining that all donors are legally eligible to donate to these tax exempt organization is the IRS' business.
This is of particular concern with the influx of foreign money to help influence elections. It's been a concern for decades. You can set up a shell company in the US and push millions to one of these organizations.
But some people like the idea of foreign money and less transparency, which is why they make up a laughable argument that this is about free speech.
So your position is I should not be able to donate to an organization and remain anonymous? Cause I must admit; I'm still a little confused.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - BmorePat87 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 12:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So your position is I should not be able to donate to an organization and remain anonymous? Cause I must admit; I'm still a little confused.
I don't recall saying that. You asked an entirely different question and I answered it with a "yes".
However, I think tax exempt organizations should disclose their donors to ensure that they should keep their tax exempt status. I'm not suggesting it be public, just that those who ensure that these organizations are following the laws can see who gives them money.
But any campaign donation of $200 or more is public. You can search the financial disclosures of all of your local politicians and see who donated to them. Our most political spending is public.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - BmorePat87 - 07-25-2018
The fact that our actual political spending is public is what makes the free speech argument so pathetically silly. Anyone can already see the most political spending of a person, so why not what they give to tax exempt organizations that are not inherently political? Hell, this is not even about it being public, just visible to the IRS.
The reason there's a fight over this is because political donations to candidates and PACs are already heavily regulated and limited, whereas these types of donations are nearly limitless. So it's one thing for people to know you gave the maximum $5,400 to a Senate campaign, but it's another to know you gave $500,000 to a group whose PAC is running ads against that Senate candidate's opponent.
It's also because foreigners cannot donate to campaigns, but they can donate to organizations that support those campaigns.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - bfine32 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 12:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't recall saying that. You asked an entirely different question and I answered it with a "yes".Well I guess we'll just disagree on this matter. Many folks free the true spirit of charity is to be able to donate without acknowledgement and I really don't think it is yours or anyone else's business to whom I donate unless I chose to disclose it.
However, I think tax exempt organizations should disclose their donors to ensure that they should keep their tax exempt status. I'm not suggesting it be public, just that those who ensure that these organizations are following the laws can see who gives them money.
But any campaign donation of $200 or more is public. You can search the financial disclosures of all of your local politicians and see who donated to them. Our most political spending is public.
It is the businesses responsibility to disclose how much they received in donations; however, they should not be required to expose those who chose to remain anonymous.
BTW, do you feel all Social Welfare Organizations should disclose the identity of their donors or just the ones you don't like?
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - NATI BENGALS - 07-25-2018
Couple perfect 10s in the mental gymnastics category.
I support unfriendly foreign adversaries right to anonymously funnel money through American entities to influence government elections is a little tough to say. So lets just go with dey took er gunz and da evil librals are trying to stop poor old sister Mary from donating to her local termanilly ill dog church for children.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - BmorePat87 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 12:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Well I guess we'll just disagree on this matter. Many folks free the true spirit of charity is to be able to donate without acknowledgement and I really don't think it is yours or anyone else's business to whom I donate unless I chose to disclose it.
It is the businesses responsibility to disclose how much they received in donations; however, they should not be required to expose those who chose to remain anonymous.
I don't think it's my business. I think its the government's business to know that all contributions to tax exempt organizations are legal and to be able to trace foreign government efforts to influence our politics.
Quote:BTW, do you feel all Social Welfare Organizations should disclose the identity of their donors or just the ones you don't like?
From the post you quoted "I think tax exempt organizations should disclose their donors to ensure that they should keep their tax exempt status".
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - BmorePat87 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 01:07 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Couple perfect 10s in the mental gymnastics category.
I think it's more of willful ignorance. Sometimes I think people don't actually read threads/articles and just post about whatever they think people are saying.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - bfine32 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 01:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I think it's more of willful ignorance. Sometimes I think people don't actually read threads/articles and just post about whatever they think people are saying.
It is not willful ignorance (although that's a great turn of phrase). You feel that the identity of anyone that contributes to a Social Welfare Origination should be made public and I do not. It appears congress agrees with me on the matter; but roll with your "they are ignorant" slant.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - BmorePat87 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 01:22 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It is not willful ignorance (although that's a great turn of phrase). You feel that the identity of anyone that contributes to a Social Welfare Origination should be made public and I do not. It appears congress agrees with me on the matter; but roll with your "they are ignorant" slant.
Case in point.
In multiple posts, including my last one to you, I explicitly stated that it should only be known to the government, not the public.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - Belsnickel - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 07:51 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Case in point.
In multiple posts, including my last one to you, I explicitly stated that it should only be known to the government, not the public.
I'm shocked, shocked I say, that your statements would be misrepresented in this way.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - GMDino - 07-25-2018
Are there not rules concerning political activity by nonprofits? Wasn't that part of the big deal when conservatives were crying that Obama was picking on and targeting right wing groups?
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - Belsnickel - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 09:37 AM)GMDino Wrote: Are there not rules concerning political activity by nonprofits? Wasn't that part of the big deal when conservatives were crying that Obama was picking on and targeting right wing groups?
It depends on the type of non-profit. 501© organizations have a lot of restrictions on their political activities. The main NRA organization is likely a 501© organization (I'm saying all of this without research because I am lazy at the moment). However, they have many other entities under their umbrella.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Interconnected_organizations
Some of those interconnected organizations are likely 527 organizations, which commonly known as PACs and can spend it however.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - michaelsean - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 09:44 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It depends on the type of non-profit. 501© organizations have a lot of restrictions on their political activities. The main NRA organization is likely a 501© organization (I'm saying all of this without research because I am lazy at the moment). However, they have many other entities under their umbrella.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Interconnected_organizations
Some of those interconnected organizations are likely 527 organizations, which commonly known as PACs and can spend it however.
They are a 501c(4). They can do political stuff, but it can't be their main activity, and it has to be related to their primary mission.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - Belsnickel - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 09:51 AM)michaelsean Wrote: They are a 501c(4). They can do political stuff, but it can't be their main activity, and it has to be related to their primary mission.
The main stem is ©4, but not all of the other parts are. Some are ©3, for example. I can't find a 990 for all the entities, so I don't know what all of them are. NRA-ILA and NRA-PVF have to be different. PVF I am almost certain is a 527. I'm not sure what ILA is.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - bfine32 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 09:11 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm shocked, shocked I say, that your statements would be misrepresented in this way.
Do you have any thoughts on the OP?
As to Pat. We are learning more and more than things exposed "only to the government" quickly become public knowledge.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - BmorePat87 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 10:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Pat. We are learning more and more than things exposed "only to the government" quickly become public knowledge.
So a better response would be "My worry is that even if these are not public, they could be leaked to the public" not "you feel that the identity of anyone that contributes to a Social Welfare Origination should be made public".
One is an argument against my stated position while the other is just a lie.
One encourages a dialogue while the other causes threads to become unproductive and potentially get locked.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - bfine32 - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 11:26 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So a better response would be "My worry is that even if these are not public, they could be leaked to the public" not "you feel that the identity of anyone that contributes to a Social Welfare Origination should be made public".
One is an argument against my stated position while the other is just a lie.
One encourages a dialogue while the other causes threads to become unproductive and potentially get locked.
Fair enough
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - Millhouse - 07-25-2018
This has been required for about 50 years now, during Republicans and Democrats tenures in offices. Yet now it's a Republican backed thing all of a sudden. Something doesn't seem right about this, because I don't think anyone cared about disclosures of donors in decades past.
But what I dont like is something of this nature is decided by a bureaucrat chief and not Congress.
Ive been trying to find exactly when & how this started, but closest I can find was that Congress told the IRS to collect donor information for non-profit groups 'about 50 years ago'.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - PhilHos - 07-25-2018
I don't understand how a foreign "entity" is capable of influencing our elections if they're giving money to established groups. Say Russia gives a billion dollars to the NRA. How is that influening our elections? It's not like the NRA isn't already doing what it can to effect public policy. Giving them more money isn't going to make them all that more effective than they already are - it's not like their issues have to do with funding or the lack thereof.
RE: IRS won't require NRA, other groups to disclose donors to tax officials - Belsnickel - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 02:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I don't understand how a foreign "entity" is capable of influencing our elections if they're giving money to established groups. Say Russia gives a billion dollars to the NRA. How is that influening our elections? It's not like the NRA isn't already doing what it can to effect public policy. Giving them more money isn't going to make them all that more effective than they already are - it's not like their issues have to do with funding or the lack thereof.
The argument is that giving them more money gives them more power because it means they have more of a voice. The general thought it that money buys access and therefore influence. It's why people give to PACs and lobbying groups, because it gets them what they want.