(12-12-2019, 04:10 PM)GMDino Wrote: I think telling someone they are "well spoken" is a compliment.  As long as it doesn't have some kind of comment that you are "surprised" by that.

However if the person receiving the compliment (any compliment) takes it "the wrong way" it is incumbent on you to reassure it was not meant "backhanded".

All you can be in sincere.  You cannot control how the other person hears and reacts to what you said.  

(12-12-2019, 04:34 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It certainly can be a compliment. Unfortunately, there's a history of it being used almost exclusively to describe black people, and the implication is that they are well spoken ... for a black person. Well-Spoken and articulate are also things that go without saying for Rhodes Scholars or Senators. Why use it? There is no doubt that it is likely sincere, but sincerity doesn't change how implicit bias impacts people.

Like I have suggested, read the Times article I posted. 

(12-12-2019, 04:51 PM)GMDino Wrote: I will read it, but I certainly understand the "weight" of certain words.  That's why I suggest being sincere if the other person interprets your compliment as something else.  It's not easy, that's for sure.

(12-12-2019, 05:25 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The speaker should be sincere to themselves too and ask why they used that word. Exposing our own unintentional biases is important.

(12-12-2019, 05:31 PM)GMDino Wrote: Agreed.  However sometimes it is only obvious to us after.  Thus "unintentional".  

(12-12-2019, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are saying no one ever used the word "articulate" until it was used to insult black people?

C'mon, man.  It happens all the time.  Lots of people use language in their daily lives, lawyers, salesmen, preachers, teachers, students, etc.  Any time you talk about these people doing their jobs it is appropriate to comment on how articulate they are.

BTW do you think the term "articulate" is also an insult to white people from rural areas or the south in general?

(12-12-2019, 03:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then they will get just upset and say "You mean a good speech/presentation FOR A BLACK PERSON, right?"

(12-12-2019, 01:57 PM)Dill Wrote: Word of praise here for an articulate Bengals fan.  You, sir, are a credit to your team's fan base.

(12-12-2019, 07:00 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote:  Black people aren't as easily offended as you seem to think.

(12-12-2019, 07:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes they are.  There is no way you can convince me that Bloomberg was surprised that a US Senator and Stanford graduate could speak properly because he was black.

I was raised lower middle class. I have lived in neighborhoods, worked at jobs, and played on ball teams where white people were a small minority.  I know exactly how easily offended black people are.  Many times I have heard them blaming racism for some of the exact same things that have happened to me.

On one hand I can't blame them for suspecting racism every time someone does not treat them right, but it is absurd to claim Bloomberg only thought booker was "well spoken for a black man".  Most white people are working on not being racist, but black people have to work on not making stuff up to be offended over.

(12-12-2019, 09:32 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't think Bloomberg is surprised that Booker is "well spoken" either. I just think he subconsciously thinks "he's one of the good ones." 

(12-12-2019, 10:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is nothing "subconscious" about it.  Whenever anyone gives a compliment to any person, no matter what their skin color, it is a way of saying "you are one of the good ones".  It is only the hyper sensitivity of black people that makes them think that Bloomberg only means "black ones".  Booker is a Stanford grad and a U S Senator.  Saying he is "one of the good ones" includes ALL people, not just blacks.

(12-12-2019, 09:32 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It doesn't mean black people just constantly make things up to be offended about though. There's historical context here and I think it'd benefit you to acknowledge that.

(12-12-2019, 10:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I fully acknowledge that there is a historical context of white people being racist, but what I am saying is that black people need to be careful about using the history of racism as a crutch or a made up reason to be offended.

I worked in a State office in Nashville for a while where 75% of the employees were African American.  While working there I got a ticket for rolling through a red light while making a left hand turn.  I was mad at myself for doing something stupid.  Just a couple of weeks later the same thing happened to a co-worker.  It was a down town intersection where it was very difficult to make a left hand turn so I believe that police were monitoring it.  But my co-worker was not mad at himself for doing something stupid because he blamed the ticket on a racist police officer instead of his own stupid actions.

If you blame everything on racism then you never correct your own faults.

If you get offended when a white person compliments a black person then you just create more resentment between the races.

There are plenty of racists institutions and actions to be legitimately angry about.  No need to make EVERYTHING about racism.  That just makes things worse instead of better.

(12-12-2019, 10:33 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: From your perspective, it wasn't racism because it happened to you first. That's okay. However, there's no guaranteeing his circumstance was identical or as bad as yours. Maybe you blatantly hit the red light whereas he hit the yellow light. Maybe the cop called him "boy" or was otherwise disrespectful to him, triggering his suspicion. 

I can definitely see that, from your perspective, that guy was wrongfully claiming racism because of your own ticket but, unless you have more details, I don't even think your "gotcha" example is all that convincing to not be racism. It is all contextual.

(12-12-2019, 11:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He admitted rolling through the light after it turned red just like I did.  Yet he blamed the ticket on a racist cop instead of on himself breaking the law.

If you really cared about "context" then you would consider the context of Corey Booker being a Stanford Grad and US Senator  If Bloomberg called a random black guy he had never met before "well spoken" then you could argue that Bloomberg was making the comments because of racism, but it is absurd to claim Bloomberg was surprised that a Stanford grad and US Senator was "well spoken" because he was black.  But when you have no facts to back it up you blame it on "subconscious" racism.

You only want to talk about context when it supports your claims of racism, but ignore it when it does not.  That is exactly what I am talking about when I talk about blaming everything on racism.  All it does it create more dissention between the races.  There is now a large portion of the black community who have painted Bloombrg as a racist with no justification other than complimenting a black man.

(12-13-2019, 12:07 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The historical context is that "well spoken" and "articulate" are terms that are attributed to black people, often by white people, when the white person has decided "this black person speaks like me. I appreciate that. They normally don't." It has been used this way for decades.

(12-13-2019, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "Well spoken" and "articulate" are also compliments used by all races to describe people of all races.  You can't just change the entire meaning of words because some people use them is a racist manner.  And I am saying that Blomberg had zero racist intentions in mind when he used that comment about Booker.  But now a large part of the black community has painted Bloomberg as a racists with no evidence at all.

Claiming every white person is racist because of a history of racism is no different from claiming every black person is a violent criminal based on the history of the violent criminal being so much higher among African Americans.  You have to stop doing that.  It is just wrong, and it creates more dissention between the races.  It is possible for a white person to call a black person "well spoken" and not mean "well spoken for a black person".  If that triggers black people then they just need to get over it.  Look at the facts before jumping to conclusions.  If Bloomberg had made this comment about a black person he just met then you may have some cause to be triggered, but it is just ridiculous when he is talking about a US Senator who graduated from Sanford.  Your claim that is was "subconscious" is just something you made up in your head with no facts to back it up.