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Iran Situation - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: Iran Situation (/Thread-Iran-Situation) |
RE: Iran Situation - Belsnickel - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 02:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Qassem Suleimani was the head of a terrorist organization that had recently killed and were targeting American citizens. While I get this being the justification for the assassination, it's important to keep in mind that the way we classified the IRGC as a terrorist organization would be similar to another country classifying USSOCOM (if the commander reported directly to POTUS) as a terrorist organization. Then you have to consider how we would see an assassination of the commander of, say JSOC. That is what we just did. Classifying them as a terrorist organization doesn't change the fact that he was a foreign official of another country's official military, a military we are not currently engaged in open conflict with. RE: Iran Situation - Au165 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 03:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I get this being the justification for the assassination, it's important to keep in mind that the way we classified the IRGC as a terrorist organization would be similar to another country classifying USSOCOM (if the commander reported directly to POTUS) as a terrorist organization. Then you have to consider how we would see an assassination of the commander of, say JSOC. That is what we just did. Classifying them as a terrorist organization doesn't change the fact that he was a foreign official of another country's official military, a military we are not currently engaged in open conflict with. Like I said above, Iran classified our entire military organization as a terrorist group. Using the same logic we applied they'd be justified in blowing up anyone associated with our military that was involved, or may be involved in future, drone strikes. RE: Iran Situation - Belsnickel - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 03:20 PM)Au165 Wrote: Like I said above, Iran classified our entire military organization as a terrorist group. Using the same logic we applied they be justified in blowing up anyone associated with our military that was involved, or may be involved in future, drone strikes. I had started typing my reply before you posted that, then got distracted and only saw it after. ![]() But yeah, 's good times. RE: Iran Situation - bfine32 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 02:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: One country's terrorist organization is another country's military. I am sure in some country's our military would be considered a terrorist group as we have launched strikes that have killed all sorts of civilians that the local government didn't agree with and we weren't at war with. In fact, Iran does label our entire military a terrorist group. The other issue here is he is acting on government issued orders, hence him being a government official. Blowing him up does nothing as someone else will step in because the government isn't just going to stop. Again, this is far different then Osama Bin Laden. (01-03-2020, 03:11 PM)hollodero Wrote: I guess no one disputes that, or that his death is not a loss for the human race. (01-03-2020, 03:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I get this being the justification for the assassination, it's important to keep in mind that the way we classified the IRGC as a terrorist organization would be similar to another country classifying USSOCOM (if the commander reported directly to POTUS) as a terrorist organization. Then you have to consider how we would see an assassination of the commander of, say JSOC. That is what we just did. Classifying them as a terrorist organization doesn't change the fact that he was a foreign official of another country's official military, a military we are not currently engaged in open conflict with.What other Nations consider us should have 0 bearing on what we classify other organizations. The United States has deemed IRGC a terrorist organization. You want to take issue with the classification of them as a terrorist organization feel free, but that doesn't change the fact that when we authorized the attack they were a terrorist organization; therefore, not a whole different situation than the elimination of bin Laden. RE: Iran Situation - Au165 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What other Nations consider us should have 0 bearing on what we classify other organizations. The United States has deemed IRGC a terrorist organization. You want to take issue with the classification of them as a terrorist organization feel free, but that doesn't change the fact that when we authorized the attack they were a terrorist organization; therefore, not a whole different situation than the elimination of bin Laden. ...he was also a general in another sovereign state's government. You keep failing to acknowledge that piece and how it makes things WAY different. Again, we are a terrorist organization per the designation Iran has assigned us an therefor if they attacked anything related to our military they would be doing so in the attempt to prevent a terrorist organization from carrying out terrorist attacks. Just deeming a part of a foreign government a terrorist group and pretending like that gives you cart blanche to do what you want isn't going to hold water with the international community as we have seen other countries coming out, even our allies, and saying they aren't backing this. As I said, if Iran did this exact same thing to us we would call it an act of war. Only difference here is we are America and they aren't so we blindly back any violations of international sovereignty as us just doing what's best. RE: Iran Situation - Belsnickel - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What other Nations consider us should have 0 bearing on what we classify other organizations. The United States has deemed IRGC a terrorist organization. You want to take issue with the classification of them as a terrorist organization feel free, but that doesn't change the fact that when we authorized the attack they were a terrorist organization; therefore, not a whole different situation than the elimination of bin Laden. You're very much missing the point being made. RE: Iran Situation - hollodero - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What other Nations consider us should have 0 bearing on what we classify other organizations. The United States has deemed IRGC a terrorist organization. You want to take issue with the classification of them as a terrorist organization feel free, but that doesn't change the fact that when we authorized the attack they were a terrorist organization; therefore, not a whole different situation than the elimination of bin Laden. Though your response really rather addresses those two other gentlemen and not me, let me respond: Yes both Suleimani and Bin Laden can be seen as terrorist leaders, and I would not argue about that in principle. In this aspect, there is indeed a similarity. There just are some major differences in the two cases as well and you seem to neglect those by just focusing on said similarity. I don't feel that's well argued. RE: Iran Situation - Nately120 - 01-03-2020 Can we just nuke Iran? Let's cut to the chase on this one. RE: Iran Situation - bfine32 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:03 PM)Au165 Wrote: ...he was also a general in another sovereign state's government. You keep failing to acknowledge that piece and how it makes things WAY different. Again, we are a terrorist organization per the designation Iran has assigned us an therefor if they attacked anything related to our military they would be doing so in the attempt to prevent a terrorist organization from carrying out terrorist attacks. Just deeming a part of a foreign government a terrorist group and pretending like that gives you cart blanche to do what you want isn't going to hold water with the international community as we have seen other countries coming out, even our allies, and saying they aren't backing this. IDC if he were the Supreme Leader; if he is the head of an organization we classify as a Terrorist organization then he is the leader of a terrorist organization. WE have not classified Iran's Army as a terrorist organization; only the part that targets civilians. And as you keep failing to acknowledge is what other countries consider us should have 0 bearing on our actions when it comes to safeguarding our citizens. We will see if this holds water with the international community. What did they do when we classified them as a terrorist organization. International Community "US why did you kill him? US: "Because he was the head of a terrorist organization that was targeting US citizen and was an eminent danger." International Community: "Didn't you realize he was a General in another sovereign country?" US: "That's their problem, not ours" RE: Iran Situation - GMDino - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Can we just nuke Iran? Let's cut to the chase on this one. I suppose that will depend on if DJT feels someone was "not nice" to him in the near future. ![]() Or if the "F*** YEAH!" hawks need a little more "push" to get off. Time will tell. RE: Iran Situation - bfine32 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Though your response really rather addresses those two other gentlemen and not me, let me respond: Yes both Suleimani and Bin Laden can be seen as terrorist leaders, and I would not argue about that in principle. In this aspect, there is indeed a similarity. There just are some major differences in the two cases as well and you seem to neglect those by just focusing on said similarity. I don't feel that's well argued. To the innocent US and allied civilians targeted and killed by these 2 organizations there was absolutely no difference. RE: Iran Situation - Nately120 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: I suppose that will depend on if DJT feels someone was "not nice" to him in the near future. It would probably be good for the hawks to see us nuke another country since most weren't alive the last time we did it. With that being said, if we don't send a bunch of troops over there we won't have anyone to "support" and root for...I'm torn really. RE: Iran Situation - bfine32 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're very much missing the point being made. Okey Doke RE: Iran Situation - Au165 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: IDC if he were the Supreme Leader; if he is the head of an organization we classify as a Terrorist organization then he is the leader of a terrorist organization. WE have not classified Iran's Army as a terrorist organization; only the part that targets civilians. We don't get to classify other governments however we want and blow them up without repercussions, as much as you may like to think so. We kill civilians every month all over the world, we just killed 30 pine nut farmers in Afghanistan in September. Classifying our military as a terrorist group really isn't far-fetched in fact the CIA funds plenty of terrorist groups all over the world, you remember the whole Contra issue? We funded terrorists in Afghanistan during the cold war, right? Syria we funded rebel forces (terrorists) fighting against an established government. So on and so forth we are as guilty of doing the same thing they do, again the difference is we are us and they are them and that's all that matters to most people. What other countries consider us is pointing out that "terrorist" is relative and therefor shouldn't be any sort of cart blanche reasoning for doing whatever you want. When you kill a government official it is an act of war, we will see how they handle it but calling everything "terrorist" related as a reason to jump into military action is a very dangerous way of doing world politics. RE: Iran Situation - GMDino - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It would probably be good for the hawks to see us nuke another country since most weren't alive the last time we did it. With that being said, if we don't send a bunch of troops over there we won't have anyone to "support" and root for...I'm torn really. ![]() https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/01/03/us-sending-3000-more-troops-to-mideast-as-reinforcements/23891858/ Quote:US sending 3,000 more troops to Mideast as reinforcements Sidenote: So the quote from DJT basically means it was just an assassination...not to do with the embassy attack. Quote:The reinforcements took shape as Trump gave his first comments on the strike, declaring that he ordered the killing of Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani because he had killed and wounded many Americans over the years and was plotting to kill many more. “He should have been taken out many years ago," he added. RE: Iran Situation - BmorePat87 - 01-03-2020 The world is better off without this person, but is he worth starting a war over? There's something to be said about holding Iran accountable for their proxy attacks, but does that mean assassinating a foreign leader in a likely illegal manner and then briefing Russia before Congress? Obama and Bush pushed the limits of executive power with regards to drone strikes, including Obama killing an American citizen under the age of 18. I was really critical of their policies, but this act might just be plain dumb. What strategic gain was made? It just seems like it was done without thought for revenge or to start a conflict. **** the hawks but also **** Rose McGowan for her dumb ass tweet. RE: Iran Situation - Arturo Bandini - 01-03-2020 Is there a US president that didn't declare a war or at least didn't bomb another country during his time ? I have a hard remember one since I'm born. I dislike Trump but he's just doing what every US president has done. We kill millions people ? Not a big deal, they kill one of us, let's kill them by millions ... Patriotic americans are the best but if another dude is patriotic to his own country then he becomes an evil guy ? It's not going to end well. RE: Iran Situation - fredtoast - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: IDC if he were the Supreme Leader; if he is the head of an organization we classify as a Terrorist organization then he is the leader of a terrorist organization. WE have not classified Iran's Army as a terrorist organization; only the part that targets civilians. Do you agree it is an Act of War by the United States against another sovereign country? Or do you think that has no meaning either? RE: Iran Situation - Au165 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:41 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is there a US president that didn't declare a war or at least didn't bomb another country during his time ? We have gotten away with using "Terrorist" as a catch all to avoid a lot of wars in the last couple decades. The problem is we have used it so much we that the line between terrorist and just "bad actor in foreign country" has disappeared. Assassinating a foreign country's general is a little bit of new territory in recent years, especially with a country we have no formal declaration of war against. RE: Iran Situation - Nately120 - 01-03-2020 (01-03-2020, 04:41 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is there a US president that didn't declare a war or at least didn't bomb another country during his time ? I can't call myself savvy in any case, but as common as war is it always seemed like going to war with Iran was seen as taking things to the next level and a bit too far, so to speak. This seems like a bold move, even for a country that has been at war for almost 20 years. |