LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias (/Thread-LE-Leaks-show-treatment-of-pro-BLM-protestors-vs-conservative-militias) |
RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Dill - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 04:34 AM)Synric Wrote: Violent offenders have a high chance of escalating. ??? missed the part where I excused one crime because I felt others were worse. If a BLM supporter is arrested for breaking a police car window during a protest, no court is going to let her off because a New-Nazi killed a BLM protestor a block away and the judge "feels" that's worse. In 18th century London, common folk were hanged equally for murder and for stealing bread. When, with the expansion of voting rights which allowed people to have a say in their own punishment, they finally began to distinguish between more and less serious crimes and to devise punishments according to scale--e.g., ok to hang a murderer but not some poor orphan girl who stole because she was starving--there were no doubt people who argued against "excusing" bread theft. In 2020 USA, the "letter of the law" distinguishes between criminal acts according to intent and severity of harm to others. That is why we should distinguish between hate groups which encourage and practice killing peaceful members of another race, and anti-hate groups which don't want to kill anyone but do fight hate groups because the anti-hate groups are against murder of peaceful members of another race. Assigning guilt and punishment according to intent and level of offense is not "excusing" one crime because others are worse, but one foundation of a just legal system. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - BmorePat87 - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 12:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't know, is there? There sure are a lot of new footage showing them vandalizing property, throwing projectiles and assaulting people. Would not every act of violence and vandalism committed at the CHOP be the work of left wing extremists? With so much violence the lack of an easily identifiable source on such violence is a rather troubling thing, yes? I assumed that you would have had information countered to my own if you spent the entire post trashing it. I couldn't find a breakdown of anything outside of murder. I looked for antifa specifically and I couldn't find it, but as I said in my response to Matt, it may be delayed a few years as data tends to be. And, no one should like any of the violence that occurs, but my point was asking whether you had reason to believe they are as much of a threat as right wing extremists or if it was just personal, as it appears to be in the leaks. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - samhain - 07-16-2020 I think another factor to consider is the "true believer" variable. When I see footage of "ANTIFA" clowns destroying and assembling for whatever mayhem they intend to create, they look like young, impressionable (stupid) college-age individuals who are doing a thing that they perceive as righteous because they're not bright enough to figure out that it's not the way to get anything positive done. Older participants appear to be, in many cases people from academia, which is a bubble within itself, and detached from the reality that most of us live in. I don't see this with right-wing groups. These are people with formed, serious ideological beliefs that in many cases at least think that they are willing to die for their causes. They are very similar to Islamic groups in this way. Their goals are almost identical, just within different cultural constructs. Lives mean nothing to them in terms of loss as a means to achieving "a future for white children". The Pittsburgh shooter wasn't there to vandalize a synagogue. He was there to kill as many Jews as possible and said as much. Same with Dylan roof. Atomwaffen is the same principal. People in far right groups absolutely believe that you should die if you aren't in line with their vision for what America should be. I don't necessarily see that on the left, although I'd hardly call far-left groups "tolerant". RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 01:46 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I assumed that you would have had information countered to my own if you spent the entire post trashing it. That's a rather unkind assessment of my post. I questioned the relevance of the numbers, I didn't trash it. Quote:I couldn't find a breakdown of anything outside of murder. I looked for antifa specifically and I couldn't find it, but as I said in my response to Matt, it may be delayed a few years as data tends to be. Neither could I, as stated, which is interesting in itself. Why is there tracking of far right extremists but not the violence of far left extremists? Maybe a lack of funding? We all know that far left violence is a thing, and not exactly a rare occurrence. So why would there be a lack of research into the problem? Quote:And, no one should like any of the violence that occurs, but my point was asking whether you had reason to believe they are as much of a threat as right wing extremists or if it was just personal, as it appears to be in the leaks. That's a fair question to ask of the Trump administration. It may be caused by the imbalance of attention in regards to far right and left violence as illustrated above. I don't know. I do know that Antifa, or those that fit under its umbrella, are very comfortable with the use of violence and engage in it on a not infrequent basis. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - samhain - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 04:34 AM)Synric Wrote: Violent offenders have a high chance of escalating. But in most cases, almost all of them, on the left, they aren't. The far-right groups don't need to escalate. They already commit murder for ideological reasons and it's documented and not really disputed. It's not a "chance" comparison. They either have a historical record of murder or they don't. People aren't charged for what their committed crimes could potentially amount to before they are committed. That would require a clairvoyant judge and jury. There's a chance that anyone could commit any crime by virtue of simply existing. The letter of the law punishes murder more harshly than assault or vandalism, so I don't really see what this issue would be in viewing killing people as more violent and dangerous than other violent crimes. You can punish people for both within the boundaries of existing laws without "feeling" any kind of way about it at all. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Dill - 07-16-2020 (07-15-2020, 07:19 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ Let's take a closer look at some of those warnings, so we can better understand any problem with the disparity in emphasis. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6982389-May-29-DHS-Intel-Report-on-White-Supremacist.html UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY (U//FOUO) OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE REPORT (OSIR) -----------------------------------------------------------------DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICE OF INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE REPORT NOT FINALLY EVALUATED INTELLIGENCE -----------------------------------------------------------------(U//FOUO) WARNING: THIS IS AN INFORMATION REPORT THAT CONTAINS RAW UNEVALUATED INFORMATION. THIS REPORT IS UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY. (U//FOUO) This information is provided for intelligence and lead purposes only. This information may not be used as the basis for any U.S. legal process, including but not limited to: presentation to any U.S. Grand/Petit juries or administrative bodies; incorporation into affidavits or other documents relating to subpoenas, search, electronic surveillance, or arrest warrants; and/or as evidence in criminal prosecutions without the prior written authorization of DHS Headquarters. -----------------------------------------------------------------(U//FOUO) SERIAL: OSIR-04001-0669-20 (U//FOUO) SUBJECT: Extremist instant messaging channel incites using 'cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms' against riot police. (U//FOUO) SUMMARY: An extremist encrypted instant messaging channel incites others to use "cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms" against riot police. Source also states breaking down "the police state and the system of control" ...3. (U//FOUO) Soon after, on 28 May 2020, Source replied to the previous reply and stated, "When Riot Police employs the generic and common pulse tactic for arrests the important thing is to break their lines with cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms. Pig armor is made for bricks and blades. The pig knows his only advantage is equipment and training. Take away the equipment advantage and outnumber their training and you have an equal fight". As of 29 May 2020, the post had approximately 1,740 views. 4. (U//FOUO) On 29 May 2020, Source shared two images posted by another user that stated, "Reminder that looting and shoplifting are both cool and whites should be doing it way more" and "[...] When the laws no longer benefit you, break them for personal gain. If you don't feel like buying something, steal it. If you don't feel like driving slow, drive fast. If you don't like someone, hurt them." Source replied to this post and stated, "We ought to revel in the destruction of the police state. It is just as necessary to break down the police state and the system of control as it is to spread racial hatred". As of 29 May 2020, the post had approximately 507 views. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - BmorePat87 - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's a rather unkind assessment of my post. I questioned the relevance of the numbers, I didn't trash it. I take back the word "trashed" and will replace it with "scrutinize" or "critique". It was a charged word and the two of us are 99% of the time civil and respectful of each other. That's on me. On to paragraph 2, With the DHS backing the project, I doubt it's a lack of funding. I think there was an attention shift back to homegrown terrorism after a decade of focus on foreign terrorism and right wing terrorism by what seems to be nearly every metric represents the biggest threat. The UMD project does look at other types of extremism, but the bulk of their work focusing on right wing seems to reflect the bulk of the incidences being right wing. The memos from the DOJ focusing on multiple left wing groups while not naming any right wing groups seems to suggest a partisan ploy by appointees rather than the career staffers. For the reasons you state at the end, it absolutely it critical that the data be reviewed and left wing extremism be addressed. The issue still remains, though, that the actions revealed in the leak are problematic. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 02:21 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I take back the word "trashed" and will replace it with "scrutinize" or "critique". It was a charged word and the two of us are 99% of the time civil and respectful of each other. That's on me. No worries, and we both agree that extremism of any sort is a problem. I think part of the issue here is, aside from the lack of data, is that right wing extremists tend towards the grander action while left wing extremists engage in more mundane, but frequent, activity. Post Vietnam era the type of organized left wing extremism does not exist on the same level as right wing. Also, bigger events tend to get more press and DOJ attention then day to day criminal activity. One need look no further than Islamic terrorism to see a perfect example of this. Based on what I see, and what is reported to me by friends in the Seattle and Portland area, Antifa is a major fomentor of violence on a frequent basis. Whether you want to view them as one organization or a loose affiliation of like minded people the fact is they refer to themselves as a whole. They are a significant problem, especially in accelerating polarization and normalizing violence as a reaction to disagreement and they absolutely should be addressed, just as right wing extremism should. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Dill - 07-16-2020 Should anyone want to delve deeper into the sources and ideology behind Antifa, to better understand their motives and methods, The Anti-Fascist Handbook is a good place to start. https://libcom.org/files/Antifa,%20The%20Anti-Fascist%20Handbook.pdf Chapter 5 on Free Speech, as understood by (it is claimed) the majority of Antifa actors might be useful for discussions on this and future threads about the effects of protests and Trumpism on free speech in the US today. Chapter 6 outlines means of opposing fascism, without chainsaws. The vast majority of anti-fascist tactics involve no physical violence whatsoever. Anti-fascists conduct research on the Far Right online, in person, and sometimes through infiltration; they dox them, push cultural milieux to disown them, pressure bosses to fire them, and demand that venues cancel their shows, conferences, and meetings; they organize educational events, reading groups, trainings, athletic tournaments, and fund-raisers; they write articles, leaflets, and news-papers, drop banners, and make videos; they support refugees and immigrants, defend reproductive rights, and stand up against police brutality. But it is also true that some of them punch Nazis in the face and don’t apologize for it. In fact, more than anything, it was the anti-fascist punching of Richard Spencer on Inauguration Day 2017 that catapulted the question of antiracist violence into the national spotlight. Yet even when somewhat sympathetic, most coverage of the act and the politics surrounding it reduced anti-fascist vio-lence to the purportedly trivial, individualistic act of “Nazi-punching.” (168) RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - BmorePat87 - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 02:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No worries, and we both agree that extremism of any sort is a problem. I think part of the issue here is, aside from the lack of data, is that right wing extremists tend towards the grander action while left wing extremists engage in more mundane, but frequent, activity. Post Vietnam era the type of organized left wing extremism does not exist on the same level as right wing. Also, bigger events tend to get more press and DOJ attention then day to day criminal activity. One need look no further than Islamic terrorism to see a perfect example of this. That's a good point. For decades we did hear about left wing extremists bombing government buildings. Now we hear about right wing extremists trying to build bombs while left wing extremists are hitting Neo Nazis and Proud Boys with bats. The violence of the latter is important but can get lost in the grand scheme of things while the magnitude of the former is unavoidable. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - fredtoast - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why is there tracking of far right extremists but not the violence of far left extremists? Maybe a lack of funding? We all know that far left violence is a thing, and not exactly a rare occurrence. So why would there be a lack of research into the problem? You have obviously not read the article linked in the OP. Official documents have been leaked that show that they are paying more attention to Antifa than the alt-right terrorists. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - fredtoast - 07-16-2020 (07-16-2020, 12:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: OK, fair enough. The number of murders is so minuscule that neither group is a threat of any significance. Considering organized street gangs kill thousands a year, and more people in any given month in Chicago alone than right wing extremists in a whole year, maybe neither group is worthy of this kind of intense focus? It is not just the number of deaths. It is the terrorist nature of the murders. The alt-right terrorists are specifically targeting law enforcement. those violent aspirations appear to have materialized in a string of targeted attacks in California that left a federal protective services officer and a sheriff’s deputy dead and several other law enforcement officials wounded. Michael German, a former FBI agent specializing in domestic terrorism and current fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice, said the materials were rife with examples of law enforcement intelligence being politicized in ways that endangered both protesters and police alike. German argued that the impulse to paint both sides of the political spectrum with the same brush, despite the fact that only the far right is actively killing people, is among the most dangerous features of modern American law enforcement. Far-right extremists have been targeting and killing law enforcement, not to mention members of the general public, for generations, German explained, and in fact, the government’s own documents show that those ideas were percolating in extremist corners of the right at the same time that Trump and U.S. Attorney General William Barr were preparing to crack down on the left. The president’s own DHS analysts issued an open source intelligence report detailing how a white supremacist channel on Telegram, an encrypted messaging service, was encouraging followers to capitalize on the unrest by targeting the police with Molotov cocktails and firearms. “The use of firearms greatly influences the scale and intensity of these events,” a source in the group, titled “National Accelerationist Revival,” wrote on May 27, advising followers to break police lines “with cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms.” . . . “We ought to revel in the destruction of the police state,” they wrote. “It is just as necessary to break down the police state and the system of control as it is to spread racial hatred.” Among the developments cited in the bulletin was the May 29 assassination of a federal court security guard in Oakland. The alleged perpetrator would later be identified as Steven Carrillo, a 32-year-old sergeant in an elite Air Force security unit. According to authorities, Carrillo would go on to ambush and kill a sheriff’s deputy and wound several others in a second targeted attack days later. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - samhain - 07-17-2020 (07-16-2020, 02:40 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's a good point. For decades we did hear about left wing extremists bombing government buildings. Now we hear about right wing extremists trying to build bombs while left wing extremists are hitting Neo Nazis and Proud Boys with bats. The violence of the latter is important but can get lost in the grand scheme of things while the magnitude of the former is unavoidable. It could be somewhat like the old East Coast bias we always hear about in college football. Most of the games people care about start at noon or in the late afternoon, and take place east of the Mississippi. Leftist violence is a lot more common and sustained on the West Coast. Cities like Seattle, Portland and Oakland (Berkeley) seem to have no shortage of people regularly participating. You don't hear about this as much in the Midwest, East Coast or Southeast unless some kind of unrelated event attracts accelerationists. People in the normal-news-cycle part of the US haven't really had left-wing violence going on in their backyards to the degree that people have out west. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - GMDino - 07-17-2020 https://www.inquirer.com/news/proud-boys-philly-police-fop-mike-pence-mcnesby-trump-alt-right-20200710.html Quote:Philly’s police union says it didn’t invite Proud Boys to a Pence after-party. It didn’t ask them to leave, either. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - fredtoast - 07-17-2020 "Police Commissioner Danielle Outlaw declined to comment" Seriously? RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-17-2020 (07-17-2020, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.inquirer.com/news/proud-boys-philly-police-fop-mike-pence-mcnesby-trump-alt-right-20200710.html Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"? RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-17-2020 (07-16-2020, 06:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have obviously not read the article linked in the OP. That would make the lack of hard data on Antifa's criminal activity even more puzzling, would it not? RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - fredtoast - 07-17-2020 (07-17-2020, 11:55 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That would make the lack of hard data on Antifa's criminal activity even more puzzling, would it not? Not really. There is not "hard data" because the FBI only worries about extreme violence, assasinations, and organized threats to society. Antifa does not display a pattern of that type of behavior. There is not a lot of "hard data" on the criminal activity of the Girl Scouts of America either. But I am not puzzled by that. When you say "lack of funding" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean there is seperate funding for investigating the alt-right as opposed to the left wing extremists. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - fredtoast - 07-17-2020 (07-17-2020, 11:54 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"? They are a right-wing group that rejects mainstream politics. RE: LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias - bfine32 - 07-17-2020 (07-17-2020, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.inquirer.com/news/proud-boys-philly-police-fop-mike-pence-mcnesby-trump-alt-right-20200710.html What are we mad about on this one? |