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When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? (/Thread-When-can-do-away-with-no-knock-warrants) |
RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - GMDino - 02-09-2022 (02-09-2022, 08:11 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is what I was thinking about with all the societal issues. I was very fortunate in my younger years because I hung around with the wrong people. However, I also hung around with the right people. One of my friends from family connections and Scouting who is a few years older than me is the current Captain for our PD that oversees Special Operations and Criminal Investigations. I've known many other officers over the years through school connections, Scouts, etc. They knew me and knew that while I was a little shit I wasn't doing the same things some of the people I hung around with were doing. But it was that knowledge of how things worked that allowed me to distance myself from the worst of the folks in my area. I haven't had time to follow up on this story much but do we know the apartment actually had a "bad guy" there? This was a warrant for a person of interest. What if they had the wrong guy? What if the victim was hanging out with someone who he should have been hanging out with? My point is that this is shading toward victim blaming. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-09-2022 (02-09-2022, 09:58 AM)GMDino Wrote: I haven't had time to follow up on this story much but do we know the apartment actually had a "bad guy" there? Because a judge found enough evidence to issue a no knock warrant for the premises. That's an extremely high burden of proof to hurdle. Quote:This was a warrant for a person of interest. What if they had the wrong guy? What if the victim was hanging out with someone who he should have been hanging out with? Yes. They didn't. What does that last sentence even mean? Quote:My point is that this is shading toward victim blaming. Except it's not, as we both predicated our position by saying it was not. The liberal talking points, while predictable, really stifle any chance to have a meaningful discussion on an issue. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - GMDino - 02-10-2022 So it turns out one of the people they were looking for was the 17 year old cousin of the man they killed. https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/us/arrest-no-knock-warrant-amir-locke-investigation/index.html They searched three apartments, didn't get the person they were looking for, but did find a way to justify one by finding marijuana...ooohhh. Oh, and they found the suspect. Didn't have to break into an apartment and took him without incident. Weird considering they seem to have thought they needed that element of surprise and force to take him with the no knock warrant. Quote:(CNN)A Minneapolis SWAT team serving a warrant that led to an officer shooting Amir Locke was looking for his teenage cousin and two others in connection with a homicide investigation, according to the court documents released Tuesday. Also the NRA released a statement defending Locke and his right to own a weapon to protect himself. Just kidding. They haven't said a damn word. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 01:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: So it turns out one of the people they were looking for was the 17 year old cousin of the man they killed. Oh wait, you mean you're upset the police used all means at their disposal to track down and apprehend a murder suspect? Being the expert on law enforcement that you are, please explain to the class what you would do if you had a homicide suspect and three likely locations that they could be located? I know you won't answer, for many reasons, but I really wish you would because I need a good laugh already today. For anyone just reading this response, I'll reiterate what both Bel and I have said about this situation. None of the parties involved did anything wrong and it's tragic that this young man died. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - treee - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 01:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: None of the parties involved did anything wrong and it's tragic that this young man died. But are you sending them your thoughts and prayers? RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - basballguy - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 01:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, and they found the suspect. Didn't have to break into an apartment and took him without incident. Weird considering they seem to have thought they needed that element of surprise and force to take him with the no knock warrant. Took him without incident? lol...... Taken from the story you linked: "Officers eventually located Speed in Winona, Minnesota, about 100 miles southeast of Minneapolis. He was arrested with a loaded gun, and in what appeared to be the same black jacket worn by the person shown in the videos from the scene when Elder was shot, according to prosecutors. Speed attempted to flee, but was arrested, according to the document." So how exactly would you have handled this if he was at the apartment? These are exact reasons why no knock warrants exist. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - GMDino - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 03:24 PM)basballguy Wrote: Took him without incident? lol...... They arrested him without killing anyone. He had a gun and didn't shoot anyone while attempting to flee. But sure, breaking into an apartment and yelling was the "safer" choice. Because those never go wrong. ![]() RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - basballguy - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 03:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: They arrested him without killing anyone. He had a gun and didn't shoot anyone while attempting to flee. You have a very strange barometer for gauging incidents. "As long as nobody died!" That aside...I'll ask again since you didn't answer. How would you recommend it be handled? RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - GMDino - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 03:57 PM)basballguy Wrote: You have a very strange barometer for gauging incidents. "As long as nobody died!" You have a way of ignoring straightforward answers. The police decided, based on what they thought/believed that the no knock was "safer" for them. Someone got killed and their suspect wasn't there. Later they arrested the subject after he tried to flee but no one was hurt. Neither the police nor the suspect. That seems to be a better way to handle it. Oh and "nobody died" should be the goal, shouldn't it? RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - basballguy - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 04:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: You have a way of ignoring straightforward answers. I'll ask a 3rd time..... If the suspect was in the apartment...How should it have been handled? Are you saying they should've just not entered, wait for him to flee the city over 100 miles away, then send people chasing after him and hope he doesn't fire the loaded weapon he has on him? You are saying we shouldn't have no knock warrants. Cool...i get it. So what I'm asking is what would you do instead? RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - GMDino - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 04:20 PM)basballguy Wrote: I'll ask a 3rd time..... This routine looks familiar so I'll just answer once more and then be done with you. (02-10-2022, 04:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: You have a way of ignoring straightforward answers. Suspect was captured in public...safely. But I suspect you'll add a new/different question and then accuse me of not answering your questions. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - basballguy - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 04:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: This routine looks familiar so I'll just answer once more and then be done with you. Either you don't want to answer or i'm doing a very poor job of asking....if the latter, i apologize. Yes, he was captured a week later far away....and "without incident" by your definition. To me, fleeing cops is an incident. But that's moot and not what i'm asking now. Let's put on our make believe hat for a minute. Let's make believe this homicide suspect was actually in one of the three apartments they searched. Your responses are vague and indirect. I am asking...IF THE DUDE WAS IN THE APARTMENT, WHAT WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAPPEN? By how you're responding, I am not able to tell what your alternative is to a no knock warrant where the suspect is actually at the place of the warrant. "We should be able to arrest them without incident"....yes of course we should. Everyone would love that. How would you go about arresting the homicide suspect without incident? Edit: The only thing i can assume with your response...since i'm clearly not understanding and you're clearly too smug to help me understand....is you're suggesting the police wait until he tries to flee the apartment then attempt to apprehend him. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 03:09 PM)treee Wrote: But are you sending them your thoughts and prayers? Nope, but sarcasm noted. As Bel said earlier, it's possible for everyone to do the right thing and a bad thing still occurs. Are you sending out your knee jerk, uninformed opinions on no knock warrants and their efficacy? That's probably a more pertinent question. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - treee - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 06:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Nope, but sarcasm noted. As Bel said earlier, it's possible for everyone to do the right thing and a bad thing still occurs. Are you sending out your knee jerk, uninformed opinions on no knock warrants and their efficacy? That's probably a more pertinent question. I'm not the one knee jerking. I just think you're overly dismissive about innocent people getting shot to death by agents of the state. You can call me uninformed for not taking your word that there isn't a better way if you want, that's fine with me. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 06:28 PM)treee Wrote: I'm not the one knee jerking. I just think you're overly dismissive about innocent people getting shot to death by agents of the state. Exactly how am I being dismissive? Quote:You can call me uninformed for not taking your word that there isn't a better way if you want, that's fine with me. Well, are you uninformed? Are you trained in law enforcement tactics? Do you have experience working as a law enforcement officer? Have you been involved in drafting policy for law enforcement agencies? Have you ever served a warrant, no knock or otherwise? My answer to every question but the first is, yes. After answering those questions, you tell me, are you informed on this topic? RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - treee - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 06:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Exactly how am I being dismissive? I'm calling into question whether the societal cost in minimized by the policy. There is what you call the "emotional" component; The cost of an innocent life. But there are other costs like the literal cost to the taxpayers, the cost against the trust of the public with the state. What from your expertise can dispell the assertion that the societal cost is not higher with the policy than some other alternative? RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 07:32 PM)treee Wrote: I'm calling into question whether the societal cost in minimized by the policy. Fine, then just say that instead of trying to make it about you being accused of being uninformed as to this practice. Quote:There is what you call the "emotional" component; The cost of an innocent life. But there are other costs like the literal cost to the taxpayers, the cost against the trust of the public with the state. If the past two years are any indication, as well as this thread, I can do nothing to dispel this perception. You all have your narrative, you all blindly accept it and you all refuse to hear any opinion to the contrary. I said literally years ago that we would start seeing a huge crime spike. I was met with guffaws from the usual suspects. Then, when it couldn't be ignored anymore it became, "I know murder and violent crime is way up, but all crime isn't up." Now, as it continues to progressively worsen by the week, I'm getting the, "Dems support law enforcement and we have to do something about this crime spike!" Be honest, you don't want to listen to people with expertise. You want to run with your preferred narrative, and you'll continue to do so until your told the narrative has changed, just like the Dems and "defund the police" or the Dems and mask mandates. if you really wanted expertise then all of this could have been nipped in the bud long ago, but you don't so you got what you got. If you want to double down, that's fine, just don't expect me to buy into it or not call it out. EDIT: I looked back on this and it comes off far more accusatory of you then I intended. My goal was to speak generically, and I obviously did not achieve that goal. To be clear, my point is about people in that position in general, not specific to you. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - treee - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 07:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fine, then just say that instead of trying to make it about you being accused of being uninformed as to this practice. No it's alright man I get it. It's a convenient refrain to fall back on. The 'ol "you won't agree with me anyway so I'm not gonna bother trying to engage with you". I happen to think I add value to PnR but it's clear you think otherwise. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 08:03 PM)treee Wrote: No it's alright man I get it. It's a convenient refrain to fall back on. The 'ol "you won't agree with me anyway so I'm not gonna bother trying to engage with you". I happen to think I add value to PnR but it's clear you think otherwise. Dude, I asked you for alternatives. You didn't provide any. I've explained my position on no knocks, and this shooting, in great detail. All I got in response was "nuh uh." Do you have any idea how many no knock warrants are served every single day in this country? I guarantee you it's in the hundreds, at least. How many of them go south like this one? If you want to knock a practice, at least let's be honest about it. This kind of thing happens less than .01% of the time, if not less. So please explain how the tactic is inherently flawed. Something with such a high success rate does not appear to be a flawed policy. I do apologize, as I stated in my edit, if the response was stronger than you'd prefer. Unfortunately, I have to explain things like this on a near daily basis to people who decided before I even started talking that I was wrong. So you will forgive me if some of that frustration bleeds over into here. RE: When can do away with "no knock" warrants? - treee - 02-10-2022 (02-10-2022, 08:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dude, I asked you for alternatives. You didn't provide any. I've explained my position on no knocks, and this shooting, in great detail. All I got in response was "nuh uh." Do you have any idea how many no knock warrants are served every single day in this country? I guarantee you it's in the hundreds, at least. How many of them go south like this one? If you want to knock a practice, at least let's be honest about it. This kind of thing happens less than .01% of the time, if not less. So please explain how the tactic is inherently flawed. Something with such a high success rate does not appear to be a flawed policy. Alright I'll take your post at face value and shelve my "societal cost" argument for now, and ask how no knock warrants are less dangerous than setting a perimeter and compelling the target to surrender? I understand that this increases the risk to bystanders by some amount but clearly so does no knocks (the 0.01 percent by your estimation). So I'd genuinely like to hear your argument vs the two possibilities. Edit: Also, is tech like thermal cameras used? Seems like it could hypothetically give a level of tactical superiority that would decrease how quickly the decision to shoot would need to be made. 2nd edit: Just looked it up and it looks like thermal cameras aren't really an option for seeing though walls. My thinking was that we're not being innovative enough and that's the first thing that came to mind. |