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+---- Thread: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt (/Thread-Protests-erupt-in-Charlotte-after-police-kill-man-12-officers-hurt)
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Belsnickel - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:01 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: How come police can't stop people who aren't an immediate threat without killing them? They should be trained and willing to do everything possible to avoid death. Tasers, beanbags and shooting someone in the leg ass opposed to killing them all seem like realistic options. Also they should actually be physically fit so there not intimidated by a big man which results in fearful decision making. If they could defend themselves without weapons they wouldn't have to hide behind one at the first instance of fear. Killing someone for simply not following precise orders is more like living in an country ruled by order not freedom. Whether the person is messed up on drugs, (Most people are these days when opoids are handed out like candy. It's not just "low lives") or just simply deaf or hearing impaired more than likely you're gonna get shot (more then once.) or the tar knocked out of you. Everyone has a right to a trial but it never gets to that point when you're 20 feet underground.
Officers take these jobs knowing there is danger involved but want to cry foul if they sense they might ever get a scratch on them. Am I going to take a job a roofer and then complain when I have to stand on a hot roof and my back aches? These people chose this profession if they can't handle it because they are physically unfit or mentally unstable they need to get out of this line of work. Nobody said it was an easy job.
For the record I don't believe it's just a race issue that's just a piece of the puzzle. I think low income families in general get judged and treated unfairly as well.
Any cop will tell you, at least based on the ones I know, that the first "weapon" they have is their voice. Whether it be a conversation to deescalate a situation or to keep it from escalating or an authoritative yell of command for someone to listen to their directions. Most of the time, the vast majority of situations, that is what works.
Less than lethal solutions aren't a guarantee. Someone coming at you can still come at you with a taser or mace applied, a number of things can reduce the efficacy. It's all rainbows and unicorns to think that these options are something that can replace a firearm, but that's just not the case. This isn't even getting into the high number of firearms in the hands of the general public, concealable ones at that, that increase the potential threat to civil servants tremendously.
I am exceptionally critical of our police in a bad shoot situation, I just want to know it is a bad shoot before I get there. I would also like to decrease police involved shootings altogether, but that will take not just a change in culture in our law enforcement community, but a change of culture across this country that is, unfortunately, improbable at this point in time.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - CageTheBengal - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:06 PM).Bengalbug Wrote: Why can't we respect authority? Police officers have a tough job and if the people listened to their orders they wouldn't get shot. Simple as that. Are they wrong and do they make mistakes? Absolutely, more than their fair share. But I would be 99% of the shootings are due to citizens putting themselves in a situation where a shooting can occur
And police are not trained to shoot to injure... Never have been.
Because they're stoned, because they're drunk, because they are hearing impaired and didn't understand the orders, because their new medicine is making them mentally unstable, because their loved one just died and they're going to a mental state. There are lots of reasons why someone might not follow orders to a tee but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to live. You shouldn't have to walk on egg shells around the police because they're paranoid about you pulling out a weapon at a routine traffic stop. My driving instructor (who used to be a cop.) told me years and years ago if I got pulled over and didn't sit still until the cop got to my car I would be looking down the barrel of a gun. Which included doing something as simple as grabbing my paperwork. That's a huge escalation from a simple traffic stop and no honest citizen should be put in that situation which could have easily happened to anyone. Maybe that's just my area but that's what I was told.
Even if you weren't misunderstood and just stole something from the gas station and ran from the police does that really mean you deserve to die? That's a legitimate crime but we live in a country were we hope to rehabilitate people and make them contributing members of society. I really doubt all these people that died were just lost causes.
(09-21-2016, 12:10 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Define low income.. Are we talking about the single mom working 2 jobs scraping by that is showing her kids how important work is.
Or are we talking about the low income that never get off gov assistance due to laziness, etc?
If we are talking about the latter... Well that group is the majority of the reason for why we have a lack of education in the inner city. Why kids are not involved in sports, family, etc... But drugs & gangs. Lack of respec, and woe is me attitudet.
I don't pitty the latter group, but feel we should help the first
What does it matter? Just being anyone of those shouldn't change the way the police treat you. Especially since they would have to be presumptive and judgemental to determine that as we don't have our social status or economic class stamped on our forehead.
(09-21-2016, 12:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: "Shoot them in the leg" for real? Why not just shoot the gun out of their hand?
As to the rest: I'm sure each office has evaluation critera both physical and mental that LEO's must meet or excede. Because they are are not to the standard that you require is irrelivent.
How big is a pistol? How big is someones leg or any other body part that won't kill them but will stop them from moving? We live in the 21st century if they aren't trained well enough to shoot a specific target without killing them their are alternatives such as tasers or beanbags.
It's not a standard that I require as I haven't laid out a standard. It doesn't take a health expert though to notice a there are a lot of cops who don't look like they could chase anyone down on foot no less physically match members of society they might have to come face to face with. What options are you left with then? As most say It's a tough job so why not have tough requirements to boot?
Like being physically fit, mentally adequate so they can read situations more accurately before they shoot and trained to shoot a target in a specific area.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - BmorePat87 - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:06 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Why can't we respect authority? Police officers have a tough job and if the people listened to their orders they wouldn't get shot. Simple as that. Are they wrong and do they make mistakes? Absolutely, more than their fair share. But I would be 99% of the shootings are due to citizens putting themselves in a situation where a shooting can occur
And police are not trained to shoot to injure... Never have been.
That situation being a black man pulled over by the cops? One dude was leaning up against his car with his hands up and he was shot. Another guy was sitting in his car complying and was shot.
The "respect cops" excuse is gone. I'm not going to cry foul with cases like Michael Brown. That was justified. I just don't understand how someone can keep suggesting it's a lack of a respect for cops after Philandro Castile.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - CageTheBengal - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Any cop will tell you, at least based on the ones I know, that the first "weapon" they have is their voice. Whether it be a conversation to deescalate a situation or to keep it from escalating or an authoritative yell of command for someone to listen to their directions. Most of the time, the vast majority of situations, that is what works.
Less than lethal solutions aren't a guarantee. Someone coming at you can still come at you with a taser or mace applied, a number of things can reduce the efficacy. It's all rainbows and unicorns to think that these options are something that can replace a firearm, but that's just not the case. This isn't even getting into the high number of firearms in the hands of the general public, concealable ones at that, that increase the potential threat to civil servants tremendously.
I am exceptionally critical of our police in a bad shoot situation, I just want to know it is a bad shoot before I get there. I would also like to decrease police involved shootings altogether, but that will take not just a change in culture in our law enforcement community, but a change of culture across this country that is, unfortunately, improbable at this point in time.
I don't believe tasers, mace and all the alternatives are a fix all solution but I think all of the options should be exhausted before it results to death and I'm not sure it is all the time. I think firearms are a necessity in law enforcement but I also I don't think there is anything wrong with an officer getting roughed up though in an attempt to prevent these people from dying because it's their career path they followed and they are protecting society. Not critically injured of course or seriously injured but from what I see they seem so timid about getting injured themselves they are trigger happy to claim someone is a serious threat. You never know what someone is going through and plenty of people can make wrong choices and turn their life around if they actually get a chance to stand trial and go through the justice system.
For example the guy who was shot in Tulsa (I think?) who was standing on the road. From what I heard as one officer shot him with a taser the other pulled out a firearm and shot him. So he was dead before they saw if the taser worked. I may be wrong on that though.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 11:20 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm not inclined to believe they'd plant a gun or even have a gun on hand that they could plant.
I do find the brief description of what happened to be inadequate, though, but I understand that information isn't always readily available.
I don't know why a 40 something year old dad would be displaying a gun to cops, especially when they aren't even there for him.
Don't expect rational behavior because often times you don't get it.
(09-21-2016, 11:27 AM)GMDino Wrote: Or its is possible I am for protests, not riots. I am for questioning events, not playing judge, jury executioner (for either side).
Perhaps a person can have a view that is not black and white about the black and whites.
Maybe take some of your own advice? Anyone familiar with your posting history has a very good idea of your opinion on law enforcement. You lean heavily against them, your feeble protestations to the contrary aside, and there's not a person on this board who isn't aware of it.
Quote:I am all for discussion on this topic...not for burning down cities over it. I also not for just blowing every shooting off and hoping for the best in the end.
I haven't seen anyone on here advocating the latter.
Quote:But enough about me.
As I was saying in the OP...this type of response does no good at all. Whether an innocent man was killed or the officers were 100% justified.
If you feel this type of response does no good then maybe it's time to stop contributing to the atmosphere that enables it?
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That situation being a black man pulled over by the cops? One dude was leaning up against his car with his hands up and he was shot. Another guy was sitting in his car complying and was shot.
I'm not sure what incident you're describing in the former example but in the Castille incident you absolutely do not know for a fact that he was complying. You have two stories, diverging quite a bit, how do you know which one is correct?
Quote:The "respect cops" excuse is gone. I'm not going to cry foul with cases like Michael Brown. That was justified. I just don't understand how someone can keep suggesting it's a lack of a respect for cops after Philandro Castile.
Again, you don't know what happened in that incident. What you do know, for a fact, is that this kind of occurrence is extremely rare. So no, the "respect cops" excuse is not gone because if it you respond with respect you're going to be fine 99.999999% of the time. Sorry, something that happens so rarely, even assuming this case was a bad shoot, is not a national issue. Tragic for those involved, no doubt, but not a national issue.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Bengalbug - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That situation being a black man pulled over by the cops? One dude was leaning up against his car with his hands up and he was shot. Another guy was sitting in his car complying and was shot.
The "respect cops" excuse is gone. I'm not going to cry foul with cases like Michael Brown. That was justified. I just don't understand how someone can keep suggesting it's a lack of a respect for cops after Philandro Castile.
Teachers, priests, gov officials, doctors, milatary, firefighters, athletes, etc all make mistakes.
Guess we stop respecting everyone then, because a handful of people clearly represent an entire entity of people.
You don't have to respect the person but you have to respect the position/title.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Bengalbug - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That situation being a black man pulled over by the cops? One dude was leaning up against his car with his hands up and he was shot. Another guy was sitting in his car complying and was shot.
The "respect cops" excuse is gone. I'm not going to cry foul with cases like Michael Brown. That was justified. I just don't understand how someone can keep suggesting it's a lack of a respect for cops after Philandro Castile.
As someone alluded to similarly and there are how many black men (or anyone but I used black men to respon directly to you) pulled over by police EVERY day? It's a very small percentage that gets escalated to this.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Bengalbug - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 12:50 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Even if you weren't misunderstood and just stole something from the gas station and ran from the police does that really mean you deserve to die? That's a legitimate crime but we live in a country were we hope to rehabilitate people and make them contributing members of society. I really doubt all these people that died were just
- I steal from a store and flee but they get my plate and car
- cop tries to pull me over and I run from him
- I finally stop and argue with the cop and don't listen and I Refuse to cooperate
- the cop gets me out of my car and I continue to refuse to cooperate
- I finally decide f' it I'll cooperate so I reach in to get my papers... But officer doesn't know that as I don't explain myself. Officer thinks I might be getting a gun so he does what he has to do
Everything I did... ME.... Is reapobnible for the actions. How to fix this
1) don't steal
2) if you do steal pull over and cooperate
------------------------------------
It's really not that hard to stay out of trouble and to keep from getting shot.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - BmorePat87 - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 02:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm not sure what incident you're describing in the former example but in the Castille incident you absolutely do not know for a fact that he was complying. You have two stories, diverging quite a bit, how do you know which one is correct?
Again, you don't know what happened in that incident. What you do know, for a fact, is that this kind of occurrence is extremely rare. So no, the "respect cops" excuse is not gone because if it you respond with respect you're going to be fine 99.999999% of the time. Sorry, something that happens so rarely, even assuming this case was a bad shoot, is not a national issue. Tragic for those involved, no doubt, but not a national issue.
So we cannot assume respect occurred, but we have to assume disrespect occurred?
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - BmorePat87 - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 02:30 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Teachers, priests, gov officials, doctors, milatary, firefighters, athletes, etc all make mistakes.
Guess we stop respecting everyone then, because a handful of people clearly represent an entire entity of people.
You don't have to respect the person but you have to respect the position/title.
(09-21-2016, 02:32 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: As someone alluded to similarly and there are how many black men (or anyone but I used black men to respon directly to you) pulled over by police EVERY day? It's a very small percentage that gets escalated to this.
I just want to know exactly what was disrespectful about any of the recent shootings? You're jumping to this excuse that people disrespect the cops so they're justifiably killed in response.
I'm not sure why your response to me is just continuing to suggest everyone is disrespecting cops.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Bengalbug - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 03:15 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I just want to know exactly what was disrespectful about any of the recent shootings? You're jumping to this excuse that people disrespect the cops so they're justifiably killed in response.
I'm not sure why your response to me is just continuing to suggest everyone is disrespecting cops.
Well one guy had a gun... Charlotte.
Tulsa...I don't know all the details but why walk back to your car? Why not just stay still.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - BmorePat87 - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 03:18 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Well one guy had a gun... Charlotte.
Tulsa...I don't know all the details but why walk back to your car? Why not just stay still.
Disrespect = walking to your car with your hands up. Got it.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - bfine32 - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 03:26 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Disrespect = walking to your car with your hands up. Got it.
Of course it is if you are instructed otherwise.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Millhouse - 09-21-2016
Here's a fatal shooting by a cop back on 2/28/15 up in Michigan. It involved an unarmed 17 year old that got pulled over after flashing his lights at an oncoming car when it was snowing. The victim said in the video the other car had brights on. It turned out to be a deputy. The cop even admitted its a new car with brighter lights, and was already flashed a couple of times by other cars. By time the incident was over, the deputy shot the kid 7 times. One last thing, the victim was white.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/22/michigan-family-teen-shot/74429034/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZS0JksWs0
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Vas Deferens - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 03:32 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Here's a fatal shooting by a cop back on 2/28/15 up in Michigan. It involved an unarmed 17 year old that got pulled over after flashing his lights at an oncoming car when it was snowing. The victim said in the video the other car had brights on. It turned out to be a deputy. The cop even admitted its a new car with brighter lights, and was already flashed a couple of times by other cars. By time the incident was over, the deputy shot the kid 7 times. One last thing, the victim was white.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/22/michigan-family-teen-shot/74429034/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZS0JksWs0
1, 2, 3 shots weren't enough. Had to fill the kid with lead.
Send this asshat to death row.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Millhouse - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 04:34 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: 1, 2, 3 shots weren't enough. Had to fill the kid with lead.
Send this asshat to death row.
Nope, he was exonerated. It apparently did divide the local community up there though but not to the point of rioting and burning stuff.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - fredtoast - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 11:14 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm sure the more conspiratorially inclined among us will bring up a plant gun. Alex Jones had multiple children who are now part of the anti-law enforcement movement.
So police have never dropped a pant gun to cover up for shooting an unarmed man?
It is all just the imagination of nut jobs like Alex Jones?
Your attitude about all of this is a perfect example of why police have such a bad reputation in many communities.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 03:11 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So we cannot assume respect occurred, but we have to assume disrespect occurred?
Not even remotely what I said. I was directly responding to your assertion that "respect the cop" does not work.
RE: Protests erupt in Charlotte after police kill man; 12 officers hurt - fredtoast - 09-21-2016
(09-21-2016, 02:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm not sure what incident you're describing in the former example but in the Castille incident you absolutely do not know for a fact that he was complying. You have two stories, diverging quite a bit, how do you know which one is correct?
Maybe he just has those heightened senses that allow him to just listen to a story and be 100 percent certain who is lying.
You have heard of people like that haven't you? They can tell who is a criminal without any evidence at all other than just looking at them or speaking to them.