(09-07-2020, 12:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You can actually read that first line you just typed and say "yep candidate's fault"? History of the forums have taught me that you and many others on the Left are no fan of personal responsibility, but this is a new benchmark.

What you are saying is: "The Left is so weak-minded that the announcement of a candidate with views different than theirs causes them to react with violence". It's a similar train of thought that leads Biden to say shit like if you don't vote for me "you ain't black." 

Let's concede that Trump is racist, because honestly you need all the concessions in this discussion you can get. There were many openly racist Presidential Candidates in the pass whose supporters didn't get  physically attacked, so what changed?

Please say society. 

(09-07-2020, 12:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Did Dill make a comparison to Hillary?

No, so this is just blatant whataboutism according to you.

(09-07-2020, 12:34 PM)Dill Wrote: Openly racists presidents weren't attacked for their racism in the past because the country as whole was racist and Blacks had little political or cultural power. "Society" moved left. That's what changed.

One of your characteristic rhetorical moves is to substitute what Trump or some other rightist specifically says or does with the most general description possible. "Different views," that's all--as if it doesn't matter at all what those views are. You yourself cannot even repeat them specifically, though in the very next line you are willing to "concede" Trump is racist.  "The announcement of a candidate with racist views causes some to react with violence"--would be a more accurate way of describing the "leftist violence" you want to single out.

How is it that the guy who disconnects Trump's actions from the criticism raining down on him FOR THOSE ACTIONS is suddenly scolding "leftists" about personal responsibility? You said good bye to that yourself moment you started finding other reasons for the nation's reaction to Trump, and the increase in right wing violence over the last four years, than what the guy actually says and does.

(09-07-2020, 12:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: No, she didn't.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304


Well why would Trump supporters acknowledge a) that he encourages violence (see video) of b) the truth?


"Personal accountability" for actions but not words.  Trump says windmills cause cancer? Defend Trump!  Trump says he'll pay for the legal fees of people who punch protesters at his rallies?  Defend Trump!  He didn't say that!  He didn't mean that!

"Personal accountability" seems to mean everyone else should be held accountable for what they say and do (Cuomo said hes lost control of NY!!) but not Trump.

(09-07-2020, 12:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes Trump was one of many that stated Obama may not have been born inside the US. Matter of fact I believe the doubt was first cast by supporters of Hillary Clinton. 

At the only people that state Trump is responsible for the Left's violence in CNN and it's political friends. 

The difference between me and those like you in this forum is I'm a bigger proponent of personal accountability. It's what leads to about 95% of the debates in this forum. And the whole violence is "Cause Trump" is no different. 

(09-07-2020, 12:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you're agreeing with me. 

(09-07-2020, 12:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I see it has you, Fred, and some others confused in an attempt to quell these continued posts; allow me to explain.

A couple weeks back someone made an appeal to emotion by proclaiming "Trump is trashing the Constitution" and gave examples of his Presidential over-reach. I mentioned this is nothing new for Presidents and gave a recent example of Obama and his Executive Order(s) IRT Illegal immigration. One of the Made Men in the forum dismissed the merits of the counter and just cried "whataboutisim".

So I had a little fun with it over the next couple days in hopes of becoming a Made Man myself.  The rub is you, Fred, and others are so blind to what others say and only look for fault in things said by me and others that have views opposite yours that you cannot identify this and actually make fun of the Made Man who dismissed my counter and he knows who he is. 

Now I blame Trump for this, but I dig it. 

(09-07-2020, 12:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Whatabout backfires.  The best you can get from this is that someone from the Hillary campaign floated this idea and was fired. Neither she nor anyone on her campaign staff stooped to using that lie as a means stirring hatred and getting votes. Cruz and Trump were happy to repeat a lie for political gain.

So there aren't "many" who stated Obama was born outside the US anymore than "many" called him a divider. Again, you use general terms not only to dilute the responsibility of those who created and used this right wing slander and propaganda, but extend responsibility for that slander to those you deem "left."

You claim you are a proponent of personal responsibility as you keep disconnecting Trump from the same. That's what your "because Trump" claims means.

(09-07-2020, 11:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This isn't intended to pick on you, or to elevate the rioters/looters in this current climate, but this sentiment is something I struggle with. "Politically motivated violence" is what this country was founded on. It has caused us to have the 40-hour work week and many laws that help protect workers around the country including putting an end to child labor. It sparked the Civil War (John Brown's raid was a really big spark on that powder keg). I think this is why I have such a hard time with this climate in general. Whether someone supports or denounces the current spate of violence is based almost entirely on whether or not they agree with the message put forth by those engaging in it.

Quote:While I don't engaged in the violence going on and don't necessarily agree with them 100%, I still find myself looking at this through the lens of historical context. I mean, I had relatives in the Coal Wars and I am proud to be descended from them. I just don't know how to best articulate this idea that we need to readjust our perception of the current events.

(09-07-2020, 12:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You can actually read that first line you just typed and say "yep candidate's fault"? History of the forums have taught me that you and many others on the Left are no fan of personal responsibility, but this is a new benchmark.

(09-07-2020, 12:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What you are saying is: "The Left is so weak-minded that the announcement of a candidate with views different than theirs causes them to react with violence". 

(09-07-2020, 12:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I forgot according to you you're the most falsely persecuted member here.

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump is responsible for suggesting Obama was born outside of the US. I merely took exception with he's the one that started it and it's one of the reasons for the violent protests. [b]I blame the folks violently protesting for violent protests. That's where we differ.[/b]

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I believe the bench mark was set when people argued that all the criticism of Trumps policies and statements were based on some mental illness instead of actually looking at Trump's policies and statements.


" It's all the media's fault!   "



What I am saying is that when peaceful people stand up to a bully the tough guys from the right generally don't call them "weak-minded". 

When a candidate aligns himself with the racial violence associated with the Confederate flag people are going to react in kind.

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I believe the bench mark was set when people argued that all the criticism of Trumps policies and statements were based on some mental illness instead of actually looking at Trump's policies and statements.


" It's all the media's fault!   "



What I am saying is that when peaceful people stand up to a bully the tough guys from the right generally don't call them "weak-minded". 

When a candidate aligns himself with the racial violence associated with the Confederate flag people are going to react in kind.

(09-07-2020, 11:04 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's correct kids, if you attack someone just blame them for being something you don't like and that makes it their fault, not yours.  Does it not bother you to make excuses for people engaged in politically motivated violence?

(09-07-2020, 12:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  There were many openly racist Presidential Candidates in the pass whose supporters didn't get  physically attacked, so what changed?

Please say society. 

(09-07-2020, 12:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I see it has you, Fred, and some others confused in an attempt to quell these continued posts; allow me to explain.

A couple weeks back someone made an appeal to emotion by proclaiming "Trump is trashing the Constitution" and gave examples of his Presidential over-reach. I mentioned this is nothing new for Presidents and gave a recent example of Obama and his Executive Order(s) IRT Illegal immigration. One of the Made Men in the forum dismissed the merits of the counter and just cried "whataboutisim".

So I had a little fun with it over the next couple days in hopes of becoming a Made Man myself.  The rub is you, Fred, and others are so blind to what others say and only look for fault in things said by me and others that have views opposite yours that you cannot identify this and actually make fun of the Made Man who dismissed my counter and he knows who he is. 

Now I blame Trump for this, but I dig it. 

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I completely get what you are saying and I don't disagree with the foundation of your point.  The problem then becomes when is it "acceptable" for those who do not agree to respond in kind?  Honestly, up until the Portland shooting there wasn't much in the way of counter protests.  I'm sure someone here will point out Rittenhouse, but I'm not including someone in that category when all the evidence points towards his acting in self defense.  But let's say the Portland murder (and yes the evidence shows this was a murder) is the start of a spate of counter protests.  Is any violence they use in response equally justified or in keeping with US history?

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I disagree with you here.  We don't need to change our perception of anything.  While I understand your call for perspective it rather ignores that there's a completely opposite side to this coin.  I don't think either group is wholly correct, but that doesn't mean they're wholly wrong either.

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Profound change is absolutely possible without violence and one need look no further than same sex marriage to see a perfect example of this.

(09-07-2020, 01:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean like when we attacked the Nazi's in WWII?  Does it bother you that I justify the violence we used against them just because they were "something we don't like"?

Quote:The Confederate Flag is the ultimate symbol of racial violence against minorities.  When Trump welcomed those at his rallies he was signifying that he accepted violence against minorities.  That is one of the biggest reasons he is the darling of the KKK and White Nationalists.

(09-07-2020, 01:12 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL I remember that.  So now noting exactly how Trump has abused executive power is an "appeal to emotion" because one by product of recognizing abuse is concern.

You never realized you were comparing apples to oranges with your Obama non-example. Someone just "cried whataboutism" because it was.

People don't just "look for fault" in your opposite views, they find it, not least in your repeated misunderstanding of what counts as whataboutism, and painful efforts to cover that deficiency with jokes.

(09-07-2020, 01:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  I blame the folks violently protesting for violent protests. That's where we differ.