(04-12-2017, 10:48 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Do they have a full staff at the State Department?  I mean Trump only has so many kids and in-laws to fill out his staff.

(04-12-2017, 11:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He didn't use chemical weapons.  Zyklon B was a pesticide, not a weaponized chemical agent.  It's no different than if he had used Raid in the camps.  It's ridiculous that I even have to say this, but this point of fact in no way minimizes the horrors of the holocaust.


I give him a break because he made a true statement.  The Wehrmacht never deployed chemical weapons of any kind.  People want to be outraged and they see a point of distinction they can wedge a crowbar into.  Anyone with a brain and without an agenda knows what the man meant.


I view it the same way as Obama's 57 states blunder.  People raked Obama over the coals, but does anyone really think Obama doesn't know how many states there are?  By the same token does anyone think Spicer is not aware of the holocaust?  I'm mortally sick of idiots being outraged.  I'm sure Maxine Waters will cite this as further evidence that Trump needs to be impeached.

(04-12-2017, 11:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He didn't use chemical weapons.  Zyklon B was a pesticide, not a weaponized chemical agent.  It's no different than if he had used Raid in the camps.  It's ridiculous that I even have to say this, but this point of fact in no way minimizes the horrors of the holocaust.


I give him a break because he made a true statement.  The Wehrmacht never deployed chemical weapons of any kind.  People want to be outraged and they see a point of distinction they can wedge a crowbar into.  Anyone with a brain and without an agenda knows what the man meant.

(04-12-2017, 11:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I view it the same way as Obama's 57 states blunder.  People raked Obama over the coals, but does anyone really think Obama doesn't know how many states there are?  By the same token does anyone think Spicer is not aware of the holocaust?  I'm mortally sick of idiots being outraged.  I'm sure Maxine Waters will cite this as further evidence that Trump needs to be impeached.

(04-12-2017, 11:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/trump-vacancies-executive-branch-237149?cmpid=sf


Trump claims he has hundreds of people waiting to fill posts and the lousy process full of obstructionist Democrats is preventing them from being confirmed.

However, of the 533 or so posts that require his nomination of a candidate, only 24 nominations have been made and 22 of them were confirmed. 

(04-12-2017, 11:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So it was a chemical being used as a weapon, but since it wasn't designed to be a weapon, it's not a chemical weapon. 

I'm asking this next question genuinely knowing you can give a professional answer: If I kill someone with a rake, is that rake considered a weapon?

(04-12-2017, 11:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You might want to recheck your research on this. Sevastopol, Odessa, and Kerch are three examples of Wehrmacht use of chemical weapons. It wasn't widely used, even though it was being manufactured by the Nazis, and that is attributed to Hitler's likely experiences with it in WWI, but there were times it was used. Also, Zyklon B was not the only agent used for exterminations.

Quote:Pretty much.

(04-12-2017, 11:22 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: There's a simple answer to this, can you buy chemical weapons at Home Depot?  If you think pesticide is a chemical weapon then your answer is yes.  There is a huge difference between a weaponized chemical agent and a poisonous chemical.  Even with this distinction the outrage over Spicer's statement is manufactured, he was making the point that not even Nazi Germany deployed chemical agents on the battlefield, which is correct. It was a poorly phrased point but it was a correct one.  Again, does anyone really think Obama doesn't know there are 50 states?  Does anyone really think that Spicer is unaware of the Holocaust?

As an aside, it is largely considered by historians that Hitler refused to use chemical warfare due to his experiences with it in WW1.  By the same token his experience in WW1 led him to believe that the standard infantryman didn't need a better rifle than the k98.

(04-12-2017, 11:32 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Interesting, I'm always up for learning something.   

(04-12-2017, 12:53 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I understood what Spicer meant, but I still think he's a moron overall. Don't even venture towards Nazis. No comparisons. Just leave it alone.

(04-12-2017, 11:42 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can buy a lot of weapons from Home Depot it would seem. The point I made in asking the question to you is that something used as a weapon is still a weapon, right? Not that this matters as the issue lies with his logic.

Quote:According to Spicer's second comment, he was referring to their use of chemical weapons on their own people by dropping them into cities. This is all technically true. Hitler didn't gas large groups of citizens, just specific undesirable citizens. The point of all of this was to suggest some level of vileness in Assad's actions that even Hitler wouldn't stoop to. Except, to accept this, we are to accept that mass murder is inherently more vile than genocide. 

Quote:So if we concede that his clarification to a specific scenario is true, you still have to reject the logic behind his argument. It's no different than saying, "Not even Hitler dropped nukes". I'm not suggesting Spicer doesn't know that Hitler used chemicals to kill nearly 1 million people, I'm suggesting that he is grossly trying to stretch the truth to make an obscene argument.

Quote:Also, really? Obama saying "57 states"? That's not even close to someone misrepresenting facts to suggest someone did something so evil that even Hitler wouldn't do it.

Quote:Just discussing history now, another thing I have read is that historians believed Hitler didn't use chemical weapons on the battlefield because he was worried that the allies had them too and wanted to prevent them from retaliating with their own chemical weapons, withholding unless the allies used them first. 

(04-12-2017, 11:43 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Check out the nerve agent tabun. It was the first nerve agent chemical weapon and was manufactured by the Nazis. They used Jewish prisoners as test subjects. Pretty nasty stuff but it was impractical to use at the time.

(04-12-2017, 12:53 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I understood what Spicer meant, but I still think he's a moron overall.  Don't even venture towards Nazis.  No comparisons.   Just leave it alone.

(04-12-2017, 01:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you, I'm actually excited to read up on something I was unaware of.  I've read numerous books on the extermination programs and I've never seen Tabun come up to my recollection.  I likely overlooked it or don't remember.

(04-12-2017, 01:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That's because it wasn't a part of the extermination program. It was one of those things that they tested on Jewish prisoners, but only where they were manufacturing it (IIRC). Since it was a new thing for them that was being derived from an insecticide (it's amazing to think what we used to put on our crops) and weaponized, they needed test subjects, and we all know they weren't going to test it on healthy Aryans. I can't remember if they also used the prisoners to manufacture the agent as well, or not. I haven't read about this stuff in a while, but I remember it well because tabun was the first weaponized nerve agent.

(04-12-2017, 02:44 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Didn't sarin start out as an insecticide?

(04-12-2017, 02:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes, that is how many chemical weapons got their start.

(04-12-2017, 02:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Back in the day when there was still a Desert Phase of Ranger School, they would have students suddenly develop symptoms of a chemical agent. Eventually they figured out it the students were chewing on a plant. Can't remember if it was Jimsomweed or Nightshade.

Quote:Within a few hours of extraordinary political shape-shifting, President Donald Trump abandoned stances that were at the bedrock of his establishment-bashing campaign.


NATO, he said, is "no longer obsolete."


He backed down a threat to brand China a currency manipulator.

How Trump came to love NATO
In another reversal, Trump praised Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen, whom he had previously pledged to replace when her term expires, and once accused of holding interest rates low as a political boost for former President Barack Obama.


It was not clear whether Trump's sudden policy flips were the product of a new outlook and worldview. But previous presidents have often remarked that the world looks a lot different from the Oval Office than from a campaign rally.

But Trump's political gymnastics didn't stop there.


Days after his administration had seemed to accept an ultra-realist approach that would allow Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to remain in control of his shattered nation, Trump decried him as a "butcher" over chemical weapons attacks on civilians -- fueling speculation he now advocates regime change.


That position, sure to antagonize Russia, came as the President adopted the most skeptical view he has yet displayed on the possibility of improving relations with the Kremlin, a position he once advanced as a candidate and that flew in the face of geopolitical realities and universal elite opinion in Washington.


"Right now we are not getting along with Russia at all. We may be at an all-time low in terms of relationship with Russia," Trump said at a White House news conference, in stark tones at odds with his former vows to ease the new chill in ties with the US nuclear foe.



By contrast, Trump was full of praise for Xi Jinping -- whom he met in Florida last week -- saying that he believed the Chinese President was sincere in helping defuse the US showdown with nuclear North Korea.


Trump made castigating China a staple of his presidential campaign, saying the communist giant was guilty of "rape" against the US economy and promising it would be branded a currency manipulator on his first day in the Oval Office.

It was almost as if Trump's outsider presidential campaign never happened as he rushed to embrace mainstream political and national security positions he once publicly abhorred.


"Circumstances change," White House press secretary Sean Spicer told CNN's Jim Acosta Wednesday when asked about the apparent reversals.


On China, Spicer cautioned the administration's report is not complete on whether to label China a currency manipulator. But he said the Chinese have made some improvements on currency in recent months. The administration has to make its assessment on where China stands now, not where it was during the campaign, Spicer said.


On NATO, Spicer pointed to the Secretary General's interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer on "The Situation Room" where he indicated that NATO countries have been performing better in terms of their financial commitments. That changed Trump's view of the group, Spicer said.


It may not be a coincidence that Trump's adoption of conventional political positions came the day after a stunning interview with the New York Post in which he publicly criticized his political guru Stephen Bannon, his insurgent, populist political conscience.


Trump diminishes, but does not dismiss, Bannon


Bannon was dumped from the National Security Council last week in a move that was seen as a triumph for officials who represent a more traditional, globalist foreign policy worldview.

His demotion was seen as another sign that the more moderate, establishment-oriented influences in his administration epitomized by his son-in-law Jared Kushner, Trump's daughter, Ivanka, and chief economic adviser Gary Cohn were rising to the detriment of Bannon and his anti-establishment cohort Stephen Miller.


Of course, one day of policy adjustments does not necessarily mean that Trump's unique political persona and methodology are suddenly going to change. After all, the President has spent most of his first 100 days in office torching conventional political practice, trading in untruths and exaggerations, and pouring oil on political controversies on Twitter -- including accusations that his campaign had links to the Kremlin at a time when Moscow was being accused of interfering in the US election.


There is no sign, for instance, that Trump is pulling back from other controversial positions -- including doubling down on border enforcement and expulsions of undocumented immigrants.


Still, the new tone on Russia, NATO, Yellen and Bannon amounted to too much of a sample of modified political behavior to represent a mere coincidence.

NATO
Perhaps the most striking 180-degree reversal by Trump on Wednesday came on NATO. While he was a candidate, Trump sent shockwaves through Europe by declaring that the most successful military alliance in history was "obsolete."


Side-by-side with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg on Wednesday at an East Room news conference, Trump took the opposite tack.


"The Secretary General and I had a productive discussion about what more NATO can do in the fight against terrorism," Trump said. "I complained about that a long time ago and they made a change, and now they do fight terrorism. I said it was obsolete; it's no longer obsolete."


Trump's claims that NATO has suddenly adopted an anti-terrorism mandate because of his efforts is highly debatable. The Western alliance spent years fighting in Afghanistan in a war that was first launched to rout out al-Qaeda and its Taliban protectors after the September 11 attacks in 2001.


But Trump's comments allowed the President a graceful way of walking back a position that had once threatened to undermine the very rationale of transatlantic defense relations.


Stoltenberg offered a subtle reminder that NATO nations are hardly novices when it comes to fighting terrorism. He noted that the only time NATO invoked its common defense clause, Article Five, was after 9/11. And he spoke about the sacrifices of more than 1,000 European and Canadian soldiers killed in the Afghanistan war.


Still, Trump's comments on Wednesday, paving the way for his visit to NATO headquarters in Brussels in May, will likely send a sigh of relief through Europe.

The President's modified rhetoric on Russia is also likely to reassure the American allies that had been deeply disturbed by his apparent desire to pursue a rapprochement with Moscow -- perhaps at the expense of Western allies.


"I'll also see about Putin over a period of time. It would be a fantastic thing if we got along with Putin, and if we got along with Russia. And that could happen, and it may not happen, it may be just the opposite," Trump said.


Trump's comments came with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson in Moscow for frosty talks with Putin -- and could reflect a new perspective on the Russian leader from Trump as he contemplates the Kremlin's support for Assad and the horrific aftermath on chemical weapons attacks on civilians that prompted the President to launch cruise missile attacks last week.


"Everybody in this room saw it all too many times over the last three or four days -- young children dying, babies dying, fathers holding children in their arms that were dead," Trump said. "Dead children -- there can't be a worse sight, and it shouldn't be allowed. That's a butcher. That's a butcher."

China
If Trump was downbeat on Putin, he was surprisingly gushing about Xi, following their summit at his Mar-a-Lago resort last week.


"I don't know Putin, but I do know this gentleman -- I've spent a lot of time with him over the last two days, and he is the President of China," Trump said during the news conference.


"President Xi wants to do the right thing. We had a very good bonding. I think we had a very good chemistry together. I think he wants to help us with North Korea. We talked trade. We talked a lot of things," he added. "And I said, the way you're going to make a good trade deal is to help us with North Korea; otherwise we're just going to go it alone."


While there is no guarantee that China sees its interests as aligned with those of the United States over the North Korea question, or elsewhere in Asia, Trump's position did represent a complete overhaul of rhetorical tone towards Beijing.


Soon after his election, he warned Chinese leaders in a tweet that he might use the issue of US relations with Taiwan and adherence to the "One China" policy on the table as a bargaining chip. Had he pursued that plan, he could have put policies that underpinned 40 years of Sino-US relations at risk.


In an interview with the Wall Street Journal on Wednesday, the President also gave notice that he would not penalize Beijing as a currency manipulator, as he had promised to do during the campaign.


"They're not currency manipulators," Trump said.


The President repeatedly took the opposite stance during his campaign -- even though experts say China has not been artificially suppressing the value of the yuan for years, and has actually been doing the exact opposite.


The President also gave a hint of flexibility on his demands for China to reverse the trade imbalance with the United States -- another bedrock of his campaign.


He suggested that if China helped to defuse the threat to the US from its ally North Korea, he might settle for a less advantageous trade deal.

Yellen's Fed
Trump also offered an olive branch to Yellen in the Wall Street Journal interview.


"I like her, I respect her," Trump said, and referring to his prediction that he would not renominate her when her term ends in 2018, he said "It's very early."


In yet another ditching of a campaign position, Trump expressed support for the US Export-Import Bank, a bête noire of some of the anti-Washington voters that helped him reach the White House, which has been left in limbo with two open seats on its board.


"Actually, it's a very good thing. And it actually makes money, it could make a lot of money," Trump told the Journal.

(04-12-2017, 09:43 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/us/politics/white-house-easter-egg-roll-trump.html?_r=0

People are expecting a lackluster Easter Egg Roll this year. What has been described as the most high profile White House event appears to have been mostly ignored until the last limit. In late February, the makers of the wooden eggs traditionally used reached out to the Trumps on Twitter to remind them that deadlines were fast approaching.

Instead of the usual high profile music performances, there will be military bands. About a fifth of the volunteers will be there and they are expecting a little more than half of the attendees as last year's. Despite claims from Spicer that local school districts have been invited, nearby schools told the NYT that they still haven't been formally invited. A military group confirmed that they did not receive their usual invites to give to military families, and members of Congress have apparently not been given tickets to hand out to constituents.

Blame seems to fall on Melania, not the Donald, as she still has not taken up residence at the White House and hasn't hired a full staff to run the social side of the White House.

(04-12-2017, 11:43 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Check out the nerve agent tabun. It was the first nerve agent chemical weapon and was manufactured by the Nazis. They used Jewish prisoners as test subjects. Pretty nasty stuff but it was impractical to use at the time.