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Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document (/Thread-Trump-Kim-sign-comprehensive-document) |
RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - NATI BENGALS - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 05:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is entertaining watching folks trying to spin a negative on this. I saw some clips where left-leaning media sources did the same thing it was equally as humorous: Sorry sunshine. Things arent all rainbows and unicorns. Like our deal with Iran there are a lot of things people have issues with. In this one we have multiple bankruptcy guy who has hired a litany of shitbags taking a evil dictator for his word because he trusts him. In the meantime he is straining relationships with trustworthy allies and throwing our support behind Russia who without a doubt is actively interfering in our democracy. Can you honestly say we should all just be cool with that...? RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - bfine32 - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 09:16 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Trump continues his administration of style points over substance points. Very little to really take away from this, negative or positive. The first ever meeting between the leaders of NK and USA and it's "very little". At least folks are consistent. It is too funny. I'm sure many agree with Bill Mahier hoping we have a recession. Because anything successful done during the Trump administration is a bad thing. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - bfine32 - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 09:30 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Sorry sunshine. Things arent all rainbows and unicorns. Of course no one should think everything is rainbows and unicorns and I spoke out on my views of Trump's comments after the GS7 comments. It's just this meeting was a great thing and one no one in their lifetime has seen. And to watch the usual suspects try to paint it in a badlight is humorous. What adds to the humor personally is that someone started a thread about Trump thinking about legalizing medical marijuana (I don't need corrected on the actual wording) and someone asked "How could the left find anything negative about that". My response was "In the most ingenious ways". I was being factious (or at least I thought), but this thread proves, like most things, I was 100% correct. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - bfine32 - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 09:16 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Trump continues his administration of style points over substance points. Very little to really take away from this, negative or positive. The first ever meeting between the leaders of NK and USA and it's "very little". At least folks are consistent. It is too funny. I'm sure many agree with Bill Mahier hoping we have a recession. Because anything successful done during the Trump administration is a bad thing. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - NATI BENGALS - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 09:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course no one should think everything is rainbows and unicorns and I spoke out on my views of Trump's comments after the GS7 comments. It's just this meeting was a great thing and one no one in their lifetime has seen. And to watch the usual suspects try to paint it in a badlight is humorous. The humorous thing is NK agreed with SK 2.5 months ago for complete denuclearization of the peninsula. Trump went in. Praised a dictator and gave him a platform he didnt deserve. Ripped free press. And offered concessions for basically the same deal. And it is the best deal ever. Because trumpet logic RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Dill - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 09:00 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Okay... Wall of Words time: Well done B! Excellent overview. You are right about the importance of borders (I remember your post about Chinese borders last year, and the number of personnel required to watch it). Just want to pick out a few points of agreement, with a bit of my own coloring in places. 1. Exactly right about '53. NK defeated in '50. US in Pyongyang. But the failure to imagine why the Chicoms would be upset with a US satellite on their border and the arrogance regarding capabilities of "Asian" troops led to the fiasco. Frozen Chosin and divided Korea. At the very most the remaining NK sate would have held only a quarter of the peninsula and less than 10% of the population, if we'd signed a peace treaty with them. 2. Right about the Cold War too. Once the Armistice was signed there was no good reason to expend more blood and treasure in Korea when blocking the USSR everywhere else rightly took priority. Even if there had been no Vietnam I don't see a justification for going back to Korea. 3. End of the Cold War requires a structural shift in US foreign policy, a reordering of priorities--especially concern for stabilizing Russia, the Balkans and the Middle East. But hampered by the return of Pre-ww2 isolationism. When NK begins pursuing nuclear technology, Clinton rightly tried to do something about that. Sharing technology with Pakistan, by the way, is one example of the dangers posed by NK at the time--creating yet ANOTHER major nuclear flashpoint with another paranoid nation. 4. 9/11 creates another structural shift in foreign policy. Bush's choices greatly constrained what Obama could do. Trump's efforts to undo Obama accomplishments have left US FP in chaos. NK getting the bomb under Bush and a potentially delivery system makes it now a focus diplomacy. Where we may disagree is over the easy lay up. Are those people around the basket on Trump's team or not? Hard to tell. Is Russia going to block China so Trump can make the shot or is Russia going to block the shot? My thinking is Trump would take wild shot and blame teammates for the miss. NK never had the bomb when Clinton dealt with him. Now they are in a position of power--equal partners. The easy lay up, if it was ever there, is surely gone now. Call time out and re pick the teams? RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - hollodero - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 09:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is too funny. I'm sure many agree with Bill Mahier hoping we have a recession. Because anything successful done during the Trump administration is a bad thing. lol... though I have to admit I've been there. Not with an US recession (because I love all of you deeply and insincerely), but in my own country, when I thought one government party to do/say/plan things I thought abhorrent and devastating. In many respects. No way I'd wanted those guys reelected, if it took a bad economy, so be it. I only feel slightly ashamed about that now. I guess I get it. As for Korea, my favorite leftist sources paint a picture of Trump giving up joint military operations with South Korea in exchange for nothing new or of substance. Are they wrong? RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Bengalzona - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 10:25 PM)Dill Wrote: Where we may disagree is over the easy lay up. Are those people around the basket on Trump's team or not? Hard to tell. Is Russia going to block China so Trump can make the shot or is Russia going to block the shot? My thinking is Trump would take wild shot and blame teammates for the miss. NK never had the bomb when Clinton dealt with him. Now they are in a position of power--equal partners. The easy lay up, if it was ever there, is surely gone now. Call time out and re pick the teams? North Korea serves a purpose for China. But it also serves a purpose for Russia. Notice that Russia and China are not nearly as concerned with North Korea having nukes as the U.S. is. In fact, they are almost completely unconcerned about it. Yet, they have been 'within range' of those nukes from the very beginning. Why is that? RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Bengalzona - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 11:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: As for Korea, my favorite leftist sources paint a picture of Trump giving up joint military operations with South Korea in exchange for nothing new or of substance. Are they wrong? Yes and no. They are not necessarily wrong, on face value anyway. I think it is supposed to be a 'good faith' offering to wet NK's appetite for further negotiations. Will it work? Yes. NK likes to get gifts, especially since they have never really felt beholden to any of the gift givers in the past. But if all they have to do is have more meetings where they get more gifts, then I'm pretty sure they will be onboard for that too. And I suspect that before this is over, NK will get a LOT more gifts. This admin and the GOP in general need the publicity of appearing like they are doing something. That may be even more valuable to them that any actual accomplishments. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - bfine32 - 06-12-2018 (06-12-2018, 11:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: lol... though I have to admit I've been there. Not with an US recession (because I love all of you deeply and insincerely), but in my own country, when I thought one government party to do/say/plan things I thought abhorrent and devastating. In many respects. No way I'd wanted those guys reelected, if it took a bad economy, so be it. Well he did say we were giving them up unless we see future negotiations are not going as it should. I have been part of these war games and their publicity far outweighs their effectiveness. So we've given up a propaganda act that we can take back whenever we choose. As to the point of wishing for financial hard times for your fellow citizens; can't say I agree with it. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 06-13-2018 (06-12-2018, 11:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: As for Korea, my favorite leftist sources paint a picture of Trump giving up joint military operations with South Korea in exchange for nothing new or of substance. Are they wrong? He's not giving up anything, he's suspending them for the time being. It's not like we can do a joint military operation in ten days if we want. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - hollodero - 06-13-2018 (06-12-2018, 11:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well he did say we were giving them up unless we see future negotiations are not going as it should. I have been part of these war games and their publicity far outweighs their effectiveness. So we've given up a propaganda act that we can take back whenever we choose. Accidentally edited my answer away... In short, I responded - that seems a bit vague, South Korea now irritated, all at least not quite enough for me to call that summit a success... and also, the leftist interpretation, as of now, doesn't look unfair or misleading to me. (06-12-2018, 11:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the point of wishing for financial hard times for your fellow citizens; can't say I agree with it. I admit I see how it's bizarre. It's not completely illogical though, assumed one considers some other major topics more important than the economy. If I'd have to choose a harder economical environment and some things I consider utterly important done the right way (or at least not the wrong way), or a good economy and the exact opposite happening on these topics - yeah, at times I can go for the first option. And the elections decide the outcome on these topics. So well, whatever helps then. I'm not saying it's one of my proudest thoughts, but I sure had it. (06-13-2018, 12:04 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He's not giving up anything, he's suspending them for the time being. It's not like we can do a joint military operation in ten days if we want. Well, that's a bit of semantics, I do get it though, so fair enough. It's still quite a gift to Kim to even suspend them. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 06-13-2018 (06-13-2018, 12:12 AM)hollodero Wrote: Well, that's a bit of semantics, I do get it though, so fair enough. It's still quite a gift to Kim to even suspend them. Sure. However, if you can flatter someone susceptible to flattery and give an autocrat an ability to grandstand back home without giving up a thing of substance why not do it? If you're trying to extract concessions from them down the road that is. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - hollodero - 06-13-2018 (06-13-2018, 12:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure. However, if you can flatter someone susceptible to flattery and give an autocrat an ability to grandstand back home without giving up a thing of substance why not do it? If you're trying to extract concessions from them down the road that is. That's what Kim said... RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 06-13-2018 (06-13-2018, 12:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: That's what Kim said... Heeeeyyyyyyyoooohhhhhhh. I know you won't get that cultural reference. But seriously, it's hard to make that joke when every "legitimate" news outlet is talking about how Trump gave away the cow for three magic beans. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - hollodero - 06-13-2018 (06-13-2018, 01:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I know you won't get that cultural reference. I'm surprisingly fine with that. (06-13-2018, 01:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But seriously, it's hard to make that joke Nah, was easy. (06-13-2018, 01:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: when every "legitimate" news outlet is talking about how Trump gave away the cow for three magic beans. But what does my remark have to do with said outlets. I'm not an outlet. I see both spins in outlets, the ones saying it was a brilliant plan to show a gesture of goodwill, others seeing as an unnecessary gift without proper return and hence a bad deal. Sure, it's sad that it was quite clear which outlet would say what even before the summit. But in this case, the "hater and loser" outlets seem to have the more solid point. Trump kind of got little in return for quite an irritating, not so unsignificant concession. Granted, I'm preoccupied, in the sense that I don't think Trump is an exceptional negotiator and similar doubts. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Bengalzona - 06-13-2018 (06-13-2018, 01:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I know you won't get that cultural reference. But seriously, it's hard to make that joke when every "legitimate" news outlet is talking about how Trump gave away the cow for three magic beans. Trump is from a society where criticism of a leader is permitted (at least for the time being, anyway). In contrast, criticism of Kim in NK is a literal death sentence. We in the West have always maintained that our leaders are better because of that criticism. And, for all of his perceived faults, hasn't Trump proven time and again to be a master of turning that same criticism against the very critics? In fact, I dare say that that may be the very skill that led him to be elected in the first place. Trump criticizing critics is as ubiquitous in today's society as critics criticizing Trump. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - jj22 - 06-13-2018 (06-13-2018, 12:04 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He's not giving up anything, he's suspending them for the time being. It's not like we can do a joint military operation in ten days if we want. He's not suspending them he's trying to end them. It's caused severe push back from both parties, including confusion from VP Pence. It was a significant concession given it was Kim's main demand and Trump got nothing in return. No need for spin if you are applauding his work at the summit right? And no it does not work like that in the real world of military operations. You can't just up and say hey lets have military operations we'll be there in 10 days! Kim is not a good man and has done some of the most horrific things to his people since Hitler. A spoiled brat. That's why no American President has ever legitimized him on the World Stage until now. That's a positive, not a negative. The pictures comparing Trump moping and pouting with our Allies in the last 19 months vs how he is with Putin/Russians, and now Kim is outrageous. I'm glad people are comparing the two to see what is going on here, and I'm glad even Trump supporters are starting to get frustrated with Trumps adoration for Dictators like Kim. Sorry Bfine. Americans won't be shamed for not standing with the "Honorable" Kim (as Trump called him yesterday), and we (on both sides) won't sit quiet and watch Trump get played for a fool by him. Trump got his supporters to stand with Putin, but Kim it seems was a little too much by their reactions to the concessions yesterday. RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - Griever - 06-13-2018 this is trumps "Mission Accomplished" moment RE: Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document - jj22 - 06-13-2018 For the record. North Korea previously pledged denuclearization in 1985, 1992, 1994, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2016. Each pledge was a lie. |