Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: Israel/Hamas War Superthread (/Thread-Israel-Hamas-War-Superthread) |
RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Dill - 05-08-2024 (05-08-2024, 12:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Israel-Hamas-War-Superthread?pid=1480605#pid1480605][/url]You are offering me the very general assessment of an anonymous Clinton White House historian, one which apparently was not maintained/revised after 2000, since it makes no mention of which features of Oslo remained in place nor how the peace process continued after the Second Intifada, limping along for another 15 years, producing at least one more agreement between Israel and the PA, the 2005 Agreement on Movement an Access. Hmmm. You raise a the essential methodological question here: what should "suit" ANYONE by way of historical sources? When deciding who, if anyone, undermined the Oslo peace talks, I'd like primary evidence (documents, memos, agreements, intel reports, Barak's "concessions" and Arafat's grounds of rejection). Also material that covers the process well past 2000 (later agreements and demands like Olmert's "Recognize Israel as a 'Jewish' state" in 2007.) Then I want to know how the best historians assess causes and effect from different angles, drawing on their vast background knowledge. Hence "a lot of words" to articulate those requirements, which are not "ideological" but involve the usual comparative method, respect for chronology and professional consensus, etc. From there I'll make my own decision, which would have to be consistent with the historical record. Thus a WH page for Clinton administration public relations in 2000--very far from primary sources--does not "suit" me because it cannot meet these non-ideological criteria (unless modern historical method is "ideological"). But it didn't take you a lot of words to say this source suited you just fine. No comparative method needed. But you implied your choice was "objective," not mine. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Dill - 05-08-2024 (05-08-2024, 12:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:Palestinians were violently displaced by hundreds of thousands of European and Russian Jews who traveled to Palestine Apparently you don't know what UN Resolution 181 was. It proposed a partition of the British Mandate, which describes administration of the partition and state boundaries. https://web.archive.org/web/20171010090147/https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/7F0AF2BD897689B785256C330061D253. So no I wasn't "appealing" to that. But the UN is part of the factual record. Hard to discuss the Arab-Israeli conflict without reference to it; it would "agree" with me only when I needed factual sources regarding UN proceedings. So nothing in my sentence above suggests I was using the UN as a "source" at all, much less "only when it agrees with [me]." What I was "appealing" to is the current consensus of Israeli historians, from Benny Morris on the right to Illan Pappe on the left, which agrees that Palestinians were outgunned, overwhelmed and driven from their land by hundreds of thousands of migrants from Europe, beginning the last week of Nov. 1947, producing over 250,000 refugees and a number of massacres in a campaign of ethnic cleansing which began BEFORE supposed "aggressor nations" came to their aid. I have explained this history to you before, at least twice, and you have either disregarded it or faulted the Palestinians for not letting the Israeli's "chill" on the land they took by violence.Israelis have a right to take land by violence; Palestinians don't. How is that not a double standard? You ignore the ethnic cleansing and repeat that Arab nations who came to their aid were "aggressors" who got their asses kicked. How is that not disregarding the factual record when it suits you. I.e., what you accuse me of without proof. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - GMDino - 05-08-2024 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68975398 Quote:Battles in east Rafah as Israel says key Kerem Shalom aid crossing has reopened RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Luvnit2 - 05-09-2024 Biden stops supplying Congress approved weapons to Israel. Why did Biden lobby for the massive aid to Israel if he was not going to supply much needed weapons and ammo to Israel. Biden lied to Congress and lied to our only ally in the middle east. Saudi Arabia was considering working with Israel and the US, but why would they do it now as Biden cowers to his base and stops helping Israel in its biggest tie of need. Biden once again on the wrong side of foreign policy. Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water. Palestinians have a choice, fight Hamas or figure out a way to surrender to Israel soldiers for the safety and wellbeing of their families. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - GMDino - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Biden stops supplying Congress approved weapons to Israel. Because he is trying to deescalate the conflict. He is concerned with the civilians who are suffering. Apparently you fall into the camp that says just let them suffer while trying to reach the impossible goal of "destroying Hamas". Sad. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Because he is trying to deescalate the conflict. He's trying not to lose Michigan and that's it. You guys will swallow anything you're spoon fed. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-09-2024 (05-08-2024, 07:21 PM)Dill Wrote: Hmmm. You raise a the essential methodological question here: what should "suit" ANYONE by way of historical sources? Tell you what, I'm going to pose the same question to you that I did to Bel. You are given ultimate authority to impose a settlement on the situation in question. You can move people freely and without violence and redraw the map as you see fit. The only thing you cannot do is change hearts and minds. Given those criteria, what would be your solution that would end this conflict? I am honestly interested in knowing. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - GMDino - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 11:34 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He's trying not to lose Michigan and that's it. You guys will swallow anything you're spoon fed. Oh, there is probably some politics in everything a President does. There is also what I said. But you don't care because you want the destruction of Hamas no matter what the cost of human life and no matter how impossible that end goal is. I'd love to have no more Hamas, or terrorists, or war, or power hungry world leaders with huge armies and egos to match. Not gonna happen. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 11:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, there is probably some politics in everything a President does. Odd that you wouldn't mention that then. Quote:There is also what I said. It is indeed unfortunate that Hamas continues to cower among the civilian populace rather than fight the IDF while in uniform. Unfortunately, using your logic Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would still be in existence as the civilian casualties inflicted on those countries dwarfs those in Gaza. All you and people like Biden are doing is proving to Hamas that their strategy works. They can attack Israel, then hide among the civilian population in order to maximize civilian casualties and then rely on gullible "progressive" westerners to protest in their favor. It's insane how much you and people like you are being cynically manipulated with absolutely no clue, even when it's directly pointed out to you. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Luvnit2 - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Because he is trying to deescalate the conflict. I fall into the camp to do all we can to get rid of a terrorist organization who killed over 1200 Israel women, elderly, babies and men on Oct. 7 during a cease fire. I fall into the camp to not sacrifice Jews to win a state. There are Democrats who agree. https://www.foxnews.com/media/democrats-blow-up-biden-halting-weapons-shipments-israel RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - pally - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 12:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I fall into the camp to do all we can to get rid of a terrorist organization who killed over 1200 Israel women, elderly, babies and men on Oct. 7 during a cease fire. I fall into the camp to not sacrifice Jews to win a state. There are Democrats who agree. so how many Palestinian babies, women, elderly should die in response? RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - GMDino - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 12:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I fall into the camp to do all we can to get rid of a terrorist organization who killed over 1200 Israel women, elderly, babies and men on Oct. 7 during a cease fire. I fall into the camp to not sacrifice Jews to win a state. There are Democrats who agree. Israel has been doing pretty good without the new shipment. This isn't Ukraine going against a bigger country. The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7. Both are awful. You want humans to suffer. That's on you. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Luvnit2 - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 12:06 PM)pally Wrote: so how many Palestinian babies, women, elderly should die in response? As many as needed to eliminate future generations of Jews and Palestinians (being used a human shields) to live in a safe environment. Israel has given ample notice to get out of harm's way, so they are either with Hamas or being held as hostage by Hamas. Either way, a terrorist organization has poisoned their minds or the only way to free hostages is to eliminate Hamas. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Luvnit2 - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: Israel has been doing pretty good without the new shipment. No, it is on Hamas and Iran, not a single life on me. I am not naive enough to believe it is a good idea to negotiate with a terrorist organization holding American hostage for over 7 months. I ma not naive and know if Hamas is permitted to function, many people on both sides will die in the future. You never address the loss of life in Israel from rockets being sent into Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah. Why? Israeli soldier's deaths as well. Yet, you believe the numbers reported by a terrorist organization about civilian deaths when the numbers have been confirmed. Simple question, does it embellish Hamas to inflate civilian deaths and deflate Hams fighter deaths? RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - GMDino - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7. Both are awful. (05-09-2024, 02:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: No, it is on Hamas and Iran, not a single life on me. (05-09-2024, 12:06 PM)pally Wrote: so how many Palestinian babies, women, elderly should die in response? (05-09-2024, 02:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: As many as needed to eliminate future generations of Jews and Palestinians (being used a human shields) to live in a safe environment. (05-09-2024, 02:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You never address the loss of life in Israel from rockets being sent into Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah. Why? Israeli soldier's deaths as well. Yet, you believe the numbers reported by a terrorist organization about civilian deaths when the numbers have been confirmed. Simple question, does it embellish Hamas to inflate civilian deaths and deflate Hams fighter deaths? (05-09-2024, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7. Both are awful. You and your buddy SSF need new material. It's getting hard to tell you apart. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Dill - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water. Wow. I think this may foreshadow Trump's foreign policy. (05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Palestinians have a choice, fight Hamas or figure out a way to surrender to Israel soldiers for the safety and wellbeing of their families. That's the trick in these large free fire zones, isn't it? Even three shirtless escaped hostages with a white flag couldn't figure that out. Then there is the question of whether surrender means "safety and well being." https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-disturbing-reports-north-gaza-mass-detentions-ill-treatment-and-enforced-disappearances-possibly-thousands-palestinians https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - Dill - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Tell you what, I'm going to pose the same question to you that I did to Bel. You are given ultimate authority to impose a settlement on the situation in question. You can move people freely and without violence and redraw the map as you see fit. The only thing you cannot do is change hearts and minds. Given those criteria, what would be your solution that would end this conflict? I am honestly interested in knowing. Kudos for a great thought experiment, which I'd like to explore, including the question of whether that is the right question, and how "end this conflict" is to be defined--no more violence, a general peace with a few disrupters on each side, a reduction of violence over time (a decade, two decades?) to almost none? It forces me to look at all sides from a different angle. Do I FORCE people to move first, or to sit at the table together first? Give me a day or so to work something up. In the interim: How long does my authority last? The answer to that will determine a lot. And if I can "move people freely without violence"--that means my authority is such they won't fight back? If this is like magic, people's minds are blanked and then suddenly they wake up in a new place, like Israel West Bank settlers suddenly Scotty-beamed into new homes in Tel Aviv, then I foresee an impossible test. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - pally - 05-09-2024 (05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water. Just ask the few survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto how the Nazis did the exact same thing to them. Hell, the Germans even used the "security" card as the initial reason to round up the Jewish population and imprison them in the Ghetto... when that didn't work and the Jews fought back...they were annihilated in Auschwitz I'm glad to see that our President has humanity and will send defensive weapons to Israel but not an unlimited supply of offensive. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - masonbengals fan - 05-10-2024 Give Joe credit. In his decades of "public service" (i.e. creating generational wealth for his family), he has been on the wrong side of every single foreign policy debate. That takes some doing. RE: Israel/Hamas War Superthread - StoneTheCrow - 05-10-2024 (05-10-2024, 08:37 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Give Joe credit. In his decades of "public service" (i.e. creating generational wealth for his family), he has been on the wrong side of every single foreign policy debate. Robert, that you? https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasnt-stopped-being-wrong-40-years/356785/ |