+- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums)
+--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0)
+---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive)
+---- Thread: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? (/Thread-How-big-of-a-vote-gap-would-it-take-for-you-to-drop-the-Electoral-College)
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-02-2019
The original system had state legislatures choosing educated electors to pick the President, each casting two votes with the 1st place winner being President and the 2nd place winner being VP.
State legislatures could decide how those electors were picked (either through an election or they would pick them). If a state had an election, you voted for electors who you knew supported someone you liked, not directly for the candidate.
I have to assume anyone who is a stickler to keeping the EC because it's the system the founding fathers developed want us to have the system in its purest form.
I think that as we attempt to throw out fake reasons for why the founding fathers created this system, we should at least be aware of the actual system they put on paper in the late 1780's.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-02-2019
(04-02-2019, 11:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: James Wilson of Pennsylvania.
You know James Wilson was the guy who called for a direct popular vote, saying "one person, one vote", right?
Madison thought the plan wouldn't fly with slave states and suggested using a system close to what we have to appease them.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - CJD - 04-02-2019
(04-02-2019, 10:58 PM)Goalpost Wrote: So would Dems change their own Super Delegate system in the primaries, since every vote seems to count now?
That would be fantastic.
The last thing we need is another candidate shoved down our throat like in 2016.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - CJD - 04-02-2019
(04-02-2019, 10:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If there's more like you, the conservative may soon be in trouble.
I'm not sure exactly what this means, but I assume it's a compliment. So thank you :)
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - Benton - 04-02-2019
So, I realize there's almost no chance a candidate from outside the big two is going to win anything substantial. That's also part of my issue with the EC.
In the last presidential election, we had two horrible candidates for POTUS. One was unfit for office, the other was so unliked it would have led to four years of division, even among the candidate's party (you can decide which was which). A third party candidate should've been viable at that point, given that the two main parties failed so spectacularly to produce a reasonable POTUS.
But the EC virtually eliminates any chance that, given the two major parties go off the rails, a third part candidate could be considered.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - Dill - 04-02-2019
(04-02-2019, 08:59 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I don't see what continues to be so complicated about this subject. The House is proportionate representation, the Senate is equal representation for the states, and POTUS is an average of the two weighted toward proportionate representation. People who want to do away with the EC are basically saying states shouldn't matter.
The "system" in question here is also about equality between states.
As someone who grew up in a state with only one representative, I side with Justwin on this, with some qualifications.
10,000,000 votes is my threshold. But I don't think the alternative is to abolish the electoral college. It could be reformed or adapted.
My votes are likely to align with California's, even the San Francisco area. BUT the nation will not hold together if Urban America's say in national affairs is massively reduced by abolition of the EC.
The bigger question is still what produces the "two Americas" phenomenon. Foolish to think reducing "flyover America's" say in national affairs will fix things.
PS if our virtual immigrants, Hollo and Arturo voted, then I call voter fraud and declare this poll invalid. I propose the moderators develop some form of on line ID to protect the integrity of polls about the Constitution.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - bfine32 - 04-03-2019
(04-02-2019, 11:37 PM)Benton Wrote: So, I realize there's almost no chance a candidate from outside the big two is going to win anything substantial. That's also part of my issue with the EC.
In the last presidential election, we had two horrible candidates for POTUS. One was unfit for office, the other was so unliked it would have led to four years of division, even among the candidate's party (you can decide which was which). A third party candidate should've been viable at that point, given that the two main parties failed so spectacularly to produce a reasonable POTUS.
But the EC virtually eliminates any chance that, given the two major parties go off the rails, a third part candidate could be considered.
Not sure I agree with that. The ability to win one state will provide a third with legitimacy. For instance the other guy I voted for besides Trump gave it a hell of a run in Utah. Popular vote: he wouldn't have made a blip.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - Stonyhands - 04-03-2019
Honest to God I wish that all the people who have such a huge problem with the way things work in this country would all just leave. I get that things aren’t perfect but the EC is a damn good system, put in place by people who knew what they were doing.
It’s sour grapes by a bunch of whiny entitled cry babies. Get over it! If you seriously cannot understand why having a couple large states’ populations determine the outcome of a federal election is a bad thing you shouldn’t even be allowed to vote.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - hollodero - 04-03-2019
(04-02-2019, 11:42 PM)Dill Wrote: PS if our virtual immigrants, Hollo and Arturo voted, then I call voter fraud and declare this poll invalid.
Ah, no need. We have other means of influencing the outcome of your elections. We all know your weakness, you're gullible to memes.
But as a foreigner, I find it odd how EC vs. popular vote is a huge issue and the fact that so many US-Americans in name only, Puerto Ricans and others don't get to vote and don't have representation at all is not. Which is fundamentally weird. - Why not fix that glaring dark spot first and then get to the finer points of modernizing democracy. Colonializm really is quite undemocratic.
Now don't get me wrong, the EC is weird too. Creating this eternal duality, yet not to be questioned.
"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism."
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."
- Ah but they sure meant for the EC to remain forever. (Btw. quotes from Washington and Adams)
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - CJD - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 02:16 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Honest to God I wish that all the people who have such a huge problem with the way things work in this country would all just leave. I get that things aren’t perfect but the EC is a damn good system, put in place by people who knew what they were doing.
It’s sour grapes by a bunch of whiny entitled cry babies. Get over it! If you seriously cannot understand why having a couple large states’ populations determine the outcome of a federal election is a bad thing you shouldn’t even be allowed to vote.
This post sounds more like a caricature of conservatism than actual conservatism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fZZqDJXOVg
The idea that wanting to improve systems is a bad thing is something that I've never understood.
The EC is not perfect. So why not try to improve it?
You act like not having EC would make only a few states determine the president but...that's literally what happens every year already. There are about 10 swing states that decide every single election. Why is that a better system than "the person who gets the most votes should win?"
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - Belsnickel - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 02:16 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Honest to God I wish that all the people who have such a huge problem with the way things work in this country would all just leave. I get that things aren’t perfect but the EC is a damn good system, put in place by people who knew what they were doing.
You do understand that the whole premise of "Make America Great Again" was that people didn't like the way things were working in this country, right?
(04-03-2019, 02:16 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: It’s sour grapes by a bunch of whiny entitled cry babies. Get over it! If you seriously cannot understand why having a couple large states’ populations determine the outcome of a federal election is a bad thing you shouldn’t even be allowed to vote.
Here's an idea: maybe work on appealing to more of the American public with your policies and then you wouldn't have to worry about this. In all but California and New York, the votes in the big states are very close. Yet with winner-take-all systems that isn't reflected. Even in those states where Trump got about half the votes Clinton did, shouldn't he have gotten something out of that? Instead, no EC votes. Republican voters in those states aren't being heard just like Democratic voters in other states aren't. Even with that, even with such disparity in those states, Trump closed the gap closer thanks to some other states that are heavily Republican, and we know a Republican can win the popular election because it has happened plenty of other times.
The EC removes the voices of some people and it makes the votes of some individuals be weighted more than others. That's un-American.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 02:16 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Honest to God I wish that all the people who have such a huge problem with the way things work in this country would all just leave.
I'm sure King George said the same thing. I'll let anyone who was part of the 11th-27th amendments know that they should have left the country.
Quote:I get that things aren’t perfect but the EC is a damn good system, put in place by people who knew what they were doing.
Our current system isn't exactly what they put in place. They designed a system where states legislatures either picked smart people or let some citizens vote for smart people to then pick the president.
Quote:It’s sour grapes by a bunch of whiny entitled cry babies. Get over it! If you seriously cannot understand why having a couple large states’ populations determine the outcome of a federal election is a bad thing you shouldn’t even be allowed to vote.
It would take winning every single vote in the 10 states with the highest total voters in 2016 in order to win the presidency (btw 7 of those 10 went Trump). The reality is votes from every single state would matter.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - Belsnickel - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 08:35 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It would take winning every single vote in the 10 states with the highest total voters in 2016 in order to win the presidency (btw 7 of those 10 went Trump). The reality is votes from every single state would matter.
Math is hard.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-03-2019
While Texas has the 2nd most population/electoral votes, they had the 3rd most total voters in 2016. Florida had more.
Texas has 28.7m residents and 15.8m registered voters. 8.9m voted in 2016 (56%).
Florida has 21.3m residents and 13m registered voters. 9.4m voted in 2016 (72%).
Texas counted for 25% more electoral votes.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - GMDino - 04-03-2019
Just a side note/rant here:
I do, sometimes, get tired of hearing that the Founding Fathers were somehow omnipotent and that they "knew what they were doing" so we can't change or challenge anything in the Constitution.
Would anyone take George Washington and put him in charge of the country as it is today? Hamilton? Any of them?
They wouldn't even know where to start with a country that look absolutely zero like it did in the 1770's. Virtually every aspect of our lives have changed since then and that means new challenges and opportunities to evolve and grow.
Just because a decision was good for the time doesn't mean it will hold up over all time.
That is not a vote for or against the EC...just an observation that if the argument is "well, that's way it always was and those guys knew what they were doing" that argument falls flat with me.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - CJD - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 09:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Just a side note/rant here:
I do, sometimes, get tired of hearing that the Founding Fathers were somehow omnipotent and that they "knew what they were doing" so we can't change or challenge anything in the Constitution.
Would anyone take George Washington and put him in charge of the country as it is today? Hamilton? Any of them?
They wouldn't even know where to start with a country that look absolutely zero like it did in the 1770's. Virtually every aspect of our lives have changed since then and that means new challenges and opportunities to evolve and grow.
Just because a decision was good for the time doesn't mean it will hold up over all time.
That is not a vote for or against the EC...just an observation that if the argument is "well, that's way it always was and those guys knew what they were doing" that argument falls flat with me.
It's also kind of the definition of conservatism.
"commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation."
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 09:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Just a side note/rant here:
I do, sometimes, get tired of hearing that the Founding Fathers were somehow omnipotent and that they "knew what they were doing" so we can't change or challenge anything in the Constitution.
Would anyone take George Washington and put him in charge of the country as it is today? Hamilton? Any of them?
They wouldn't even know where to start with a country that look absolutely zero like it did in the 1770's. Virtually every aspect of our lives have changed since then and that means new challenges and opportunities to evolve and grow.
Just because a decision was good for the time doesn't mean it will hold up over all time.
That is not a vote for or against the EC...just an observation that if the argument is "well, that's way it always was and those guys knew what they were doing" that argument falls flat with me.
They had some pretty incredible ideas, revolutionary and ahead of their times, and then they had ideas like saying people could be enslaved and count as 3/5ths of a person.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - GMDino - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 10:50 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: They had some pretty incredible ideas, revolutionary and ahead of their times, and then they had ideas like saying people could be enslaved and count as 3/5ths of a person.
And I don't mean to take away from what they DID just that it doesn't mean that it translates into what we DO now.
Like voting on a Tuesday. So dumb now.
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-03-2019
(04-03-2019, 10:52 AM)GMDino Wrote: And I don't mean to take away from what they DID just that it doesn't mean that it translates into what we DO now.
Like voting on a Tuesday. So dumb now.
Yea, why should we vote on a Tuesday just because Congress said it was a good idea in the 1800's?
RE: How big of a vote gap would it take for you to drop the Electoral College? - BmorePat87 - 04-03-2019
Back to the poll, people either think the EC should be abolish regardless of popular vote or they think it should always remain.