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The OK case - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: The OK case (/Thread-The-OK-case) |
RE: The OK case - fredtoast - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 12:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE .223 is actually a small bullet. So that might be true. RE: The OK case - michaelsean - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 03:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: .223 is actually a small bullet. So that might be true. That's what most of these military rifles shoot isn't it? RE: The OK case - michaelsean - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 02:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't know a thing about guns, but the answer to your question varies by locality. I am installing a doorbell camera with an additional camera for my back door that send me videos anytime someone comes around. I figured since day time break ins are more common, this is a good security device. I also can talk via the camera, so when my phone alerts me that someone is at my front door, I can call the police and tell them via the speaker that the police are coming. I have a large loud dog. To my mind, that's better security than even a gun. Most people won't even bother. RE: The OK case - Belsnickel - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 02:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: Americans talking guns. Never do I feel more estranged to you. Not much, and even smaller when you consider that most break-ins are for robbery and if you just let them take your shit, no one gets hurt. I'm of the "barricade and them have the material possessions" kind of approach. Material things aren't worth a human life, even that of the person stealing them. RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 (04-03-2017, 10:47 PM)michaelsean Wrote: So what is the formula that says effective military weapon equals poor choice for self-defense? There isn't a formula. It's a subjective opinion based upon knowledge, experience, personal preference, yada, yada, yada. If you ask ten different gun enthusiasts you will most likely get ten different answers. (04-04-2017, 12:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE When it comes to over penetration we have kinda covered this ground before. http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-%E2%80%98Military-Style%E2%80%99-Firearms-Aren%E2%80%99t-Protected-By-Second-Amendment-Court-Rules?highlight=penetration All my exterior walls are brick so I'm not concerned with overpenetration due to a .223/5.56 AR-15 killing my next door neighbor. I'm more concerned about overpenetration shooting the guy standing in my living room causing a through and through wound because I'm shooting him with less than 20 feet of stand off with a muzzle velocity of approx. 3000 ft/sec. As we covered before, ammo selection plays an important role whether you get overpenetration or not. (You don't want a through and through round because it causes less damage.) There are various combinations of ammo and weapons all with pros and cons which may or may not cause overpenetration of the target or surrounding structures. It basically boils down to personal preference. It's your basic Chevy vs. Ford debate. With that said let's get to the links. First one, around the 1:10 mark the guy describes the ammo tested. He had previously tested the ammo on the 16" gelatin block and knew overpenetration wasn't a concern. So if he knows overpenetration isn't a concern why is he conducting an overpenetration test on ammo he already knows doesn't overpenetrate? It's like testing whether I can breath under water when I already know I can't breath under water before I even conduct the damn test because I already conducted an underwater breathing test previously and learned that I couldn't breath under water. Second one, I've already stated I'm not worried about overpenetration with my exterior brick walls if I used a .223/5.56 AR-15. I'm more worried about overpenetration causing a through and through wound not killing the intruder in my home because an AR-15 may be overpowered for shooting someone in a room inside my house. SSF made a valid argument that may not happen depending upon ammo selection. A handgun with a slower muzzle velocity with the "right" ammo selection may be a better choice. It's highly subjective. The part I want to point out is the hyperlink to R.K. Taubert's article about .223 penetration. I like reading primary sources, not some other guy's opinion of the primary source. I wans't able to find an unedited version. But, anyway . . . Quote:Ballisticians and Forensic professionals familiar with gunshot injuries generally agree that high velocity projectiles of the .223 genre produce wounds in soft tissue out of proportion to their calibers, i.e. bullet diameter. This phenomenon is primarily attributed to the synergistic effects of temporary stretch cavity (as opposed to the relatively lower velocity stretching which typifies most pistol rounds) and bullet fragmentation on living tissue. Most of the information coming from the pro AR-15 groups will underestimate or down play the wound characteristics. But, one of the reasons the US military uses this weapon/ammo combo is because it produces wounds out of proportion to the calibre. You can't appreciate the tissue destruction in a gelatin block. Plus since it weighs less than 7.62 ammo a soldier can carry more rounds at the same weight. More rounds equals a higher volume of fire for a longer period of time. These qualities along with high capacity magazines allows a soldier to gain fire superiority over the enemy. To recap: - designed for the military to kill the enemy - produces wounds out of proportion to the calibre - can carry more rounds per weight - more rounds equals higher volume of fire for longer period of time = fire superiority http://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/ohio-gun-laws Anyone can buy an AR-15 at any gun show in Ohio without any sort of background check, license, permit, hunter safety course, or training of any kind. Plus they don't have to keep records of the transactions. RE: The OK case - hollodero - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 02:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But having a giant retaining wall between your home and the road does not compensate for a small penis. What does? RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/Portlet.aspx?ID=a99f565c-4029-4f74-b57a-2a6747614173 Military textbook includes ballistics. Pictures are NSFW. RE: The OK case - michaelsean - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 03:53 PM)hollodero Wrote: What does? Ferrari RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 03:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: .223 is actually a small bullet. So that might be true. http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/physics/mechanics/forces/newton/mightyFEqMA/mightyFEqMA.html force = mass x acceleration What the rounds lack in mass they make up for in accleration compared to 7.62. Plus the tumbling affect rips the bullet into multiple fragments which helps transmit all of the kinectic energy over multiple wound tracks increasing the tissue destruction. The more kinetic energy dumped from the bullet to the tissue increases the amount of tissue damage it causes. RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 03:15 PM)michaelsean Wrote: That's what most of these military rifles shoot isn't it? Probably, but they are available in multiple calibers. RE: The OK case - michaelsean - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 04:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Probably, but they are available in multiple calibers. At the time we were speaking specifically of the potential to harm your neighbor. RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 04:13 PM)michaelsean Wrote: At the time we were speaking specifically of the potential to harm your neighbor. Again, I would say .223/5.56 is probably the most popular caliber, but I can't say that with certainty. RE: The OK case - michaelsean - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 04:18 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Again, I would say .223/5.56 is probably the most popular caliber, but I can't say that with certainty. I quoted the wrong post. Where you were talking about lethality (force=mass x acceleration) we were talking about threat to enter your neighbor's home. RE: The OK case - hollodero - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 03:59 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Ferrari What model do you drive? RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 04:48 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I quoted the wrong post. Where you were talking about lethality (force=mass x acceleration) we were talking about threat to enter your neighbor's home. That was more in response to the size of the bullet. A smaller bullet can be more lethal than a larger bullet depending upon the acceleration. RE: The OK case - fredtoast - 04-04-2017 I don't think you all are using the F=ma formula correctly. that does not really measure the force of impact with another object. Instead it measures the amount of force needed to accelerate that mass to a certain speed. For example a train traveling 100MPH but with zero acceleration is going to do a lot more damage to you than the same train going 5MPH but accelerating at a rate of 1 foot/second squared. RE: The OK case - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 05:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you all are using the F=ma formula correctly. that does not really measure the force of impact with another object. Instead it measures the amount of force needed to accelerate that mass to a certain speed. Talk to Fan in Kettering. He's the physicist. Added: Look at the link for the military textbook. Then the chapter on ballistics. I gave you the wrong formula. Kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared/2. The velocity of the bullet has a greater affect on kinetic energy because it is squared and mass isn't RE: The OK case - Dill - 04-04-2017 (04-03-2017, 11:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't know, you'd have to ask them. Oh wait, you're one of those people who makes sweeping judgments about people based on their appearance. LOL bad me. Profiling doesn't work, right? We'd have to ask them . . . . RE: The OK case - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 08:31 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL bad me. Profiling doesn't work, right? We'd have to ask them . . . . Wait, so are you saying the profiling works? Your initial statement would seem to indicate this. RE: The OK case - Dill - 04-04-2017 (04-04-2017, 09:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If shooting at an intruder in your house could possibly kill your neighbors then it is a bad choice. Depends on the neighbors. |