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+---- Thread: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban (/Thread-SCOTUS-rules-on-Travel-Ban)
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 02:43 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Right, because all white people are racist.
I never said anything like that.
What type of twisted logic leads you to believe that racism can only exist if 100% of a population is racist?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 02:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That was not my question.
Do poor white kids in underfunded rural schools not even try because they are told they are disadvantaged?
Counter-question: do poor white kids in underfunded rural schools do better than middle-class black kids in well funded public schools?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - Bengalzona - 06-27-2018
The admin went back and changed it three times and finally got a version that SCOTUS goes along with. I have no problem with that.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - Belsnickel - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 02:47 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Counter-question: do poor white kids in underfunded rural schools do better than middle-class black kids in well funded public schools?
So here comes me with some fun knowledge on this situation. The poorer a school district is, the more equal they are. So in a rural setting, black kids and white kids often perform similarly. This is because these rural areas are often more egalitarian. This means that comparing them to more urban, well funded school districts is difficult. Performance in schools is based primarily on funding, of this there is little doubt. The issue is that because many urban areas are currently more racially segregated than they were pre-Brown, and because the wage and wealth gaps between black people and white people is still tremendously large, it means that the the allocation of resources is favoring predominantly white students.
I get what you were saying with your post, or trying to get at, that it is based on money. It is. But the wealth differences are also able to be looked at through the existence of institutional/systemic racism over the years. This isn't to say that poor white people aren't caught up in this. I've made it clear in some of my posts that past efforts to discriminate black people have caught poor white people up in the same trap because the wealthy people making these efforts didn't care about the poor people. It's the same story over and over again.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 02:47 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Counter-question: do poor white kids in underfunded rural schools do better than middle-class black kids in well funded public schools?
No.
Now answer my question.
Why is it that some people believe only black people give up and stop trying when they realize they are disadvantaged? They claim that if we acknowledge systemic racism exists then black people stop trying. But they never say we should deny that differences in school funding exists because it will make all the poor white people give up and stop trying.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 02:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never said anything like that.
What other reason could there be that would make it "hard for Leroy Williams" to ever be the interviewer if the people in charge are mostly white"?
(06-27-2018, 02:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What type of twisted logic leads you to believe that racism can only exist if 100% of a population is racist?
I don't know. It's YOUR logic. You're the one saying that Leroy Williams has a "hard" time becoming an interview if the people in charge are mostly white.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.
Now answer my question.
Sir. Yes, sir!
(06-27-2018, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why is it that some people believe only black people give up and stop trying when they realize they are disadvantaged?I don't think they believe ONLY black people give up. I'm sure those same people believe women and Latinos and old people and any other disadvantaged group also give up and stop trying when they realize they are disadvantaged.
I don't personally think any of them do, as a whole. I think there are some, sure. I don't know where I would draw the line if it's most, half or some, but I do believe that SOME do. More importantly, though, I'd rather take away any reason FOR them to give up. Or try to use reasons to get them inspired to overcome their difficulties. But, that's me.
(06-27-2018, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They claim that if we acknowledge systemic racism exists then black people stop trying.Well, that's because some do. It's like with Trump and fake news. When there are actually legitimate fake news stories it makes it easier for Trump to claim ALL news stories as fake. That doesn't make it right to paint ALL of them as giving up though.
(06-27-2018, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But they never say we should deny that differences in school funding exists because it will make all the poor white people give up and stop trying.
That's because no one cares about poor white people.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What other reason could there be that would make it "hard for Leroy Williams" to ever be the interviewer if the people in charge are mostly white"?
I don't know. It's YOUR logic. You're the one saying that Leroy Williams has a "hard" time becoming an interview if the people in charge are mostly white.
Because there is racism among whites. No where did I say that "every" white person was racist. I never implied anything like that.
If you say that crime is a problem in your neighborhood and you are worried about being a victim of a crime does that mean you are saying that 100% of the people in your neighborhood are criminals?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So here comes me with some fun knowledge on this situation. The poorer a school district is, the more equal they are. So in a rural setting, black kids and white kids often perform similarly. This is because these rural areas are often more egalitarian. This means that comparing them to more urban, well funded school districts is difficult. Performance in schools is based primarily on funding, of this there is little doubt. The issue is that because many urban areas are currently more racially segregated than they were pre-Brown, and because the wage and wealth gaps between black people and white people is still tremendously large, it means that the the allocation of resources is favoring predominantly white students.
I get what you were saying with your post, or trying to get at, that it is based on money. It is. But the wealth differences are also able to be looked at through the existence of institutional/systemic racism over the years. This isn't to say that poor white people aren't caught up in this. I've made it clear in some of my posts that past efforts to discriminate black people have caught poor white people up in the same trap because the wealthy people making these efforts didn't care about the poor people. It's the same story over and over again.
Appreciate this post, Matt. But, my take is that most "institutionalized racism" is really wealth disparity dressed up as racism. I acknowledge that historical racism has had a significant effect on said wealth disparity, but I do not believe there is such a thing as "institutionalized racism" except maybe in certain specific institutions (like the criminal justice system, for example).
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I don't think they believe ONLY black people give up. I'm sure those same people believe women and Latinos and old people and any other disadvantaged group also give up and stop trying when they realize they are disadvantaged.
Curious that you don't mention poor white men.
I wonder why?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because there is racism among whites. No where did I say that "every" white person was racist. I never implied anything like that.
You're right. My bad. I should have said you believe that MOST whites are racist. Not all. My apologies.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Curious that you don't mention poor white men.
I wonder why?
Because no one cares about poor white men.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You're right. My bad. I should have said you believe that MOST whites are racist. Not all. My apologies.
So if you are concerned about being a victim of a crime that means you believe that most people are criminals?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Because no one cares about poor white men.
And that is why they give up and don't even try?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - Belsnickel - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Appreciate this post, Matt. But, my take is that most "institutionalized racism" is really wealth disparity dressed up as racism. I acknowledge that historical racism has had a significant effect on said wealth disparity, but I do not believe there is such a thing as "institutionalized racism" except maybe in certain specific institutions (like the criminal justice system, for example).
Ah, but the issue with the criminal justice system contributes to the wealth disparity in a large way. It's all interconnected. Socioeconomic inequality is the biggest issue that is threatening our country right now. You will never hear me say otherwise. The problem is that we need to make sure that when we address those issues we recognize the racial disparities existent in the system as it stands now. The New Deal failed to address these issues and that is why a poor white person is going to be better off than a poor black person in today's society. In the post-New Deal era, when neo-liberals and neo-conservatives have been running rampant with deregulation we have seen the poor become worse off and the middle class erode, but there is still racial disparity in that and it grows as well because of things like the criminal justice system. Black households lose net median wealth at a faster rate than white households because the issues that were started decades ago were never fixed.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - fredtoast - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Appreciate this post, Matt. But, my take is that most "institutionalized racism" is really wealth disparity dressed up as racism. I acknowledge that historical racism has had a significant effect on said wealth disparity, but I do not believe there is such a thing as "institutionalized racism" except maybe in certain specific institutions (like the criminal justice system, for example).
When I graduated from college many of the wealthy elite power brokers in Knoxville belonged to an exclusive all white country club called Cherokee Hills. They would not even allow wealthy successful black people to join.
How do you explain this if racism is just "wealth disparity"?
Surely you would not try to argue that these people who refused to allow wealthy successful black people join their club would treat whites and blacks equally on the job, would you?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So if you are concerned about being a victim of a crime that means you believe that most people are criminals?
What is your rationale, then, for why Leroy Williams would have a hard time being an interviewer if the people in charge are mostly white?
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And that is why they give up and don't even try?
Hell, I don't know. I don't care about poor white men!
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - Millhouse - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When I graduated from college many of the wealthy elite power brokers in Knoxville belonged to an exclusive all white country club called Cherokee Hills. They would not even allow wealthy successful black people to join.
How do you explain this if racism is just "wealth disparity"?
Surely you would not try to argue that these people who refused to allow wealthy successful black people join their club would treat whites and blacks equally on the job, would you?
Augusta National where The Masters is played had their first black member in 1990. The yearly member dues were probably around 10k or so, maybe more.
But that was nearly 30 years ago, and on the tail-end of the WW2 generation running things. Now that the baby-boomers replaced that generation and are slowly being replaced by my generation, we don't see these sort of racial barriers anywhere close to how they used to be. Not saying some dont exist, but even in the last 30 years many of these barriers have been torn down.
RE: SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban - PhilHos - 06-27-2018
(06-27-2018, 03:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When I graduated from college many of the wealthy elite power brokers in Knoxville belonged to an exclusive all white country club called Cherokee Hills. They would not even allow wealthy successful black people to join.
How do you explain this if racism is just "wealth disparity"?
That's just plain racism.
Does Cherokee Hills still exclude blacks?