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+---- Thread: US income inequality continues to grow (/Thread-US-income-inequality-continues-to-grow)
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Nately120 - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 12:57 PM)Beaker Wrote: The trades are begging for more people currently. Only a high school diploma or GED is needed and they pay very well.
True enough. Eventually that market will be flooded and wages will go down and there will be more demand for something else.
I know when I was in college people were dropping out to get into the housing market, and when my ol man got back from Nam you could waste time and money in college or cash in working at a steel plant. Times change.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - GMDino - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 12:57 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Is it bad that the biggest thing I took out of this back and forth is that Dino bought a used lawnmower?
Riding mower.
Yeah. Ours needed a fair amount of work (I thought it was just the fuel filter) and rather than spend 300-400 with no guarantee I bought a used one for 300 that is 10x better than the old one I had.
I started buying used/refurbished a couple years ago when my digital camera bit the dust. For half the price I got the same camera that (new) lasted me three years. I did the same when my video camera died.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Millhouse - 07-24-2018
I agree with both Beaker and Fred overall.
One thing is for certain is that the gap between the top 1% and the rest of us peasants is widening. And it goes beyond simply working harder. After reading more and more into this, I am trying to educate myself more on how the Federal Reserve has played into it. Back in 2015, a Forbes article like many others pointed out the reduced interest rates handed down by the Fed, ran by Bernanke, :
"Virtually all economists agree that the Fed’s low interest rates have been responsible for inflating stock market values. By reducing the returns to savings accounts, certificates of deposit and bonds, the Fed has intentionally driven ordinary investors to increase their investment allocation to the stock market, thereby boosting stock returns. Because people with more wealth tend to own more stock, those higher stock prices have led the rich to gain much more than the poor and middle class.
Low interest rates have meant low borrowing costs for large corporations with direct access to capital markets. This low-cost borrowing has boosted corporate profits which also flow mostly to the wealthy." https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2015/10/29/rand-paul-is-right-the-fed-is-increasing-inequality/#7b2685f16452
That is one of many articles that point out the effects of what the Federal Reserve policies can do. Just do a search for "federal reserve income inequality". Again, I am no expert on this at all, just a newb reading into it. But I do think it is worth reading into for more info, whether to agree or disagree with it.
Problem with reading all this stuff it's like reading about some neural brain surgery technique that is written in some code only doctors can understand. Which is why I believe how banks and the Federal Reserve can get away with issues like this because no one understands what a lot of they do.
Of course this imo is part of the problem of the widening gap. Better education for the poor through 12th grade would help a lot. Better access and loans for the poor for trade schools and perhaps college would help. Better minimum wage laws state-to-state based on economic factors within those states to keep up with inflation. Etc.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - michaelsean - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: Riding mower.
Yeah. Ours needed a fair amount of work (I thought it was just the fuel filter) and rather than spend 300-400 with no guarantee I bought a used one for 300 that is 10x better than the old one I had.
I started buying used/refurbished a couple years ago when my digital camera bit the dust. For half the price I got the same camera that (new) lasted me three years. I did the same when my video camera died.
Oh mister fancy pants needs a riding mower. How big is that estate of yours?
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - GMDino - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 12:56 PM)Beaker Wrote: I am not ignoring anything. I am saying you need to persevere in spite of those obstacles. Its not about "too bad for you", its about not listening to those who insist factors will prevent your success not matter how hard you try.
It's not about believing people who say it...it's reality.
I did everything you suggested. I changed jobs, "moved up", worked hard, even have two side businesses...even made some good choices to go with the bad. But I'm still subject to the whims of the economy just like a lot of other people.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - GMDino - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:16 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh mister fancy pants needs a riding mower. How big is that estate of yours?
Ha!
Little under an acre. I push mowed it when we first got married...once.
Just takes too long.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Beaker - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: Riding mower.
Yeah. Ours needed a fair amount of work (I thought it was just the fuel filter) and rather than spend 300-400 with no guarantee I bought a used one for 300 that is 10x better than the old one I had.
I started buying used/refurbished a couple years ago when my digital camera bit the dust. For half the price I got the same camera that (new) lasted me three years. I did the same when my video camera died.
That's kinda the point I'm making about adjusting your choices and living within your means as circumstances change. When I became a teacher, I got paid a lot less than my previous job. I made the necessary adjustments to my living situation. As did you.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Belsnickel - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:11 PM)michaelsean Wrote: We also had the post war boom, and people did not live then like they live today. One car maybe, no cable tv, no smart phones, no AC for a lot of people. I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong, but supporting a family then is different than now.
You are correct. Only one car was doable because many households had only one person working. AC wasn't as necessary because we hadn't done all we could to take away the natural cooling systems of nature. Increased concrete and asphalt in place of trees and grass makes AC more of a necessity because of the increased temperatures.
Anyway, typically when we compare household expenses from that era with today we look at what percentage of income certain necessities took up. We know that food, housing (rent or mortgage), and medical costs took up a lower percentage of a household's income during that period than they do today. The other things certainly play a role in some of the issues, today, but just looking at those three things we can see that costs have outpaced wages in a way that is a recipe for disaster.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - michaelsean - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ha!
Little under an acre. I push mowed it when we first got married...once.
Just takes too long.
Pshaw. I push-mowed a 5 acre snow covered hill with a Dennis the Menace lawnmower when I was a kid.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Beaker - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:17 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's not about believing people who say it...it's reality.
I did everything you suggested. I changed jobs, "moved up", worked hard, even have two side businesses...even made some good choices to go with the bad. But I'm still subject to the whims of the economy just like a lot of other people.
We al are. But we adjust as the changes come our way. We can still have a good living even when making way less. But you did what was necessary to improve your situation. Even if that meant being less comfortable for the short term.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - fredtoast - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:06 PM)Beaker Wrote: I believe the entire economy begins with the individual. Gotta start at the beginning if you want to affect change.
This makes zero sense. The middle and lower classes do not have the wealth or influence to change the system.
Are you completely ignorant of all history regarding industry, wages, and workers rights?
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - GMDino - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:18 PM)Beaker Wrote: That's kinda the point I'm making about adjusting your choices and living within your means as circumstances change. When I became a teacher, I got paid a lot less than my previous job. I made the necessary adjustments to my living situation. As did you.
And I could do that...now.
Twenty years ago the riding mower was a need because of the time it took to cut the grass which I didn't have because of my job. So we made that choice too.
I'm talking about people who don't have room to make that choice. People who do work hard and make good choices but aren't getting anywhere because the system isn't designed for them to get anywhere.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - fredtoast - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:20 PM)Beaker Wrote: We al are. But we adjust as the changes come our way. We can still have a good living even when making way less. But you did what was necessary to improve your situation. Even if that meant being less comfortable for the short term.
But why should the lower and middle classes have to adjust to living on less when their labor is creating new wealth for the owners.
Why should the people who have money be able to control the system so they make more while exploiting the labor of the lower and middle classes?
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Benton - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: True enough. Eventually that market will be flooded and wages will go down and there will be more demand for something else.
I know when I was in college people were dropping out to get into the housing market, and when my ol man got back from Nam you could waste time and money in college or cash in working at a steel plant. Times change.
Eventually. The market is a big part of that. If people are purchasing and the economy is growing, we're (usually) producing more and those trades are in a bigger demand to make stuff. If the economy is shrinking (or sometimes just flat) the demand drops and those pay scales drop.
We have a big riverboat industry here. When the economy is good, they can't hire enough welders and metal workers to build barges or repair them. But that's pretty inconsistent. And the established companies know that, so they don't bump the wages a ton since they know in a few years they'll probably be laying those guys off.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - PhilHos - 07-24-2018
Let me tell you all a story.
As I'm sure most of you might recall, my wife and I recently had to switch careers. We both worked for the same company in the religious social service industry. Our positions both ended and there was no immediate opportunities in our fields so we decided to switch careers to something more steady. Because part of the compensation from our job was housing, we also needed to move.
We were given 2 months notice that our job was ended and in that time, we both found jobs in different fields (mine is banking and hers is child care) in a different city in a different state. We had to live with family for a couple months while we found an apartment but that was only a couple months.
Keep in mind that neither of us went to a 4 year college, though we both have associate's degrees; I'm in my early 40s; and both of us had LITTLE experience in the fields we decided to focus our employment on.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Belsnickel - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Let me tell you all a story.
As I'm sure most of you might recall, my wife and I recently had to switch careers. We both worked for the same company in the religious social service industry. Our positions both ended and there was no immediate opportunities in our fields so we decided to switch careers to something more steady. Because part of the compensation from our job was housing, we also needed to move.
We were given 2 months notice that our job was ended and in that time, we both found jobs in different fields (mine is banking and hers is child care) in a different city in a different state. We had to live with family for a couple months while we found an apartment but that was only a couple months.
Keep in mind that neither of us went to a 4 year college, though we both have associate's degrees; I'm in my early 40s; and both of us had LITTLE experience in the fields we decided to focus our employment on.
Anecdotal evidence can be helpful, but it can't disprove the type of studies that rely on the scientific method and large data sets. Everyone has a different experience, but what we must look at are trends, averages, different factors that can come into play, and a host of other things.
I was laid off at a time when unemployment was very high. I was told by the outplacement consultants my former employer hired that the average time to find a new job was 4-6 months. I had two job offers in six weeks. Does that mean the economy wasn't in the shitter or that unemployment wasn't as bad as all the data said? No. What it means is that I beat the odds.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - fredtoast - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Let me tell you all a story.
As I'm sure most of you might recall, my wife and I recently had to switch careers. We both worked for the same company in the religious social service industry. Our positions both ended and there was no immediate opportunities in our fields so we decided to switch careers to something more steady. Because part of the compensation from our job was housing, we also needed to move.
We were given 2 months notice that our job was ended and in that time, we both found jobs in different fields (mine is banking and hers is child care) in a different city in a different state. We had to live with family for a couple months while we found an apartment but that was only a couple months.
Keep in mind that neither of us went to a 4 year college, though we both have associate's degrees; I'm in my early 40s; and both of us had LITTLE experience in the fields we decided to focus our employment on.
This kind of proves my point.
Two people in their 40's with college degrees working full time still could not afford a place to live when they lost their jobs. Hard working middle class people should not have to struggle like this when the stock market is booming and industries are recording record profits. The people at the top are raking in all the growth while hard working middle class people are still struggling to just get by.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - PhilHos - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 02:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Anecdotal evidence can be helpful, but it can't disprove the type of studies that rely on the scientific method and large data sets.
Studies aren't the end all be all. They have their use, sure, but they aren't infallible statements of fact. That said, my point being that it was not that difficult for both my wife and I to switch employment, especially considering we were doing so in a completely different state. And we're far from being upper middle class people, too.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - Belsnickel - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Studies aren't the end all be all. They have their use, sure, but they aren't infallible statements of fact. That said, my point being that it was not that difficult for both my wife and I to switch employment, especially considering we were doing so in a completely different state. And we're far from being upper middle class people, too.
Sure, studies are fallible. However, conclusions drawn from them are exponentially more reliable than conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence. That is my point.
RE: US income inequality continues to grow - PhilHos - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Two people in their 40's with college degrees working full time still could not afford a place to live when they lost their jobs.
First off, my wife is not in her 40s. She's in her 30s.
More importantly, housing was provided for us by our employmer. Had they not provided us the housing, we still could have afforded housing.
(07-24-2018, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Hard working middle class people should not have to struggle like this when the stock market is booming and industries are recording record profits.I didn't say we struggled.
(07-24-2018, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This kind of proves my point.
Yeah, if you ignore eveything I said and post things that I didn't say.
