Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise
Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Printable Version

+- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums)
+--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0)
+--- Thread: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation (/Thread-Is-it-OK-for-NYT-CNN-and-squad-members-to-report-misinformation)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 07:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't tend to blame anything on religion. Religion is a construct that people use to justify their shitty behavior and make themselves feel warm and fuzzy. Without religion there would be some other tribalist bullshit they would use.

Please note, in case anyone wants to try to jump in here and bash me, religion has an important role in society and is also a separate thing than faith or belief. Religion itself is a separate, important thing but it is manipulated by terrible people to justify their behavior.

I don't think your qualifier is needed, although you may be correct that someone would use this to attack you.  But I must again disagree with your premise.  Religion is the absolute trump card of justification/provocation.  It is near impossible to convince a religious person their religious views are wrong.  Why, because faith in god does not require logic or proof, it requires faith.  A religious justification for any action cannot be countered with secular reasoning or a rational argument.  You're wrong because God/Allah/Yaweh said you are and you'll never be able to counter their judgment.  One need only look at Twitter to see it playing out in real time.  I've lost track of the number of tweets from people that have some variation on "Israel has the US and the weapons on their side, we have Allah".

This is a religious conflict at its base, and that's why it will never be solved by a two state solution.  Neither parties hard core religious adherents would accept it.  

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 12:18 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: How does Hamas protect the Palestinians they represent? Israel has shot down thousands of rockets from Gaza, but some got through and killed Israeli children, yet I don't see any concern for the Israeli people. I don't see any concern about the killing and taking hostage women, children and babies on October 7th.
I hold Hamas accountable for every Palestinian death, they started it and then they use their own people as human shields. That is pure evil.
Who is your source for the killing of thousands of Children? Is it the UN or is it Hamas? Neither is a trustworthy source. Or did you pull out thousand of children from year rear end?

Palestinian health officials put the number of children killed so far at 2,704. I doubt even the Israelis see much reason to dispute this.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinian-children-death-trauma-israel-bombing-hamas-rcna122113

Also, Tlaib has condemned the Hamas killing of children as a war crime. Why do you say you don't see any concern for that? That is why so many nations are calling for a cease fire. 

Regarding the vetting of information and sources in this conflict--it is always best to compare sources, and wait, rather than "trusting" one and jumping to conclusions.

A warning about info from the IDF in this regard. For decades they claimed that Palestinians used civilians as human shields, but as of 2021, the last time I checked, no independent news or human right organization could independently verify any of that. They could verify that IDF soldiers used civilians as human shields, though, as Israeli courts tried and punished their own soldiers for doing that.  Every incident an claim on their part--anyone's part--has to be investigated by impartial investigators before we have a trustworthy account.

PS. Under contemporary International Humanitarian Law, you cannot hold Hamas responsible for Israeli war crimes. If you are doing so, then you are going outside the premise of universal human rights which underpins that law.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 08:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Palestinian health officials put the number of children killed so far at 2,704.

You spelled Hamas wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

"Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government"


Quote:I doubt even the Israelis see much reason to dispute this.


Sure they do, it's a number provided by a terrorist organization with an agenda to destroy the state of Israel.  Taking them at their word is no different than believing any claim out of North Korea.  Only an idiot or someone with an agenda would do so.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 01:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is a false dichotomy. As with just about everything in this world there is far more nuance than just two sides to it.

Also, I would argue that the thin veneer is the religious component. Religion is often used as an excuse for things that really just boil down to people being pieces of shit.

I tend to agree with you on nuance.  

I would say, though, that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tends to get simpler if one agrees that Palestinians have the same human rights as every other people.
That makes it more difficult to represent Israeli as simply "responding" to attacks, which is a consequence of reporting about the conflict mostly only when Israel is attacked. As it is, Americans don't seem especially curious about why "terrorists" in occupied territories would attack their occupiers.

As far as religion goes--Palestine was one of the places where Jews and Muslims and Christians got along pretty well until Zionists began displacing Muslims, buying land with the goal of "transferring" Arabs out of Eretz Israel. 

When people of one religion were peacefully disposed towards their neighbors of another religion, until newly arrived adherents of that religion began driving them off their land, then yes--it is very odd to simply ascribe subsequent conflict to a religious difference which had always been there. Doing so frames out the real drivers of conflict, and so any real possibility of understanding and resolving the conflict. That's in your favor if you don't want it resolved.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 08:54 PM)Dill Wrote: I tend to agree with you on nuance.  

I would say, though, that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tends to get simpler if one agrees that Palestinians have the same human rights as every other people.
That makes it more difficult to represent Israeli as simply "responding" to attacks, which is a consequence of reporting about the conflict mostly only when Israel is attacked. As it is, Americans don't seem especially curious about why "terrorists" in occupied territories would attack their occupiers.

As far as religion goes--Palestine was one of the places where Jews and Muslims and Christians got along pretty well until Zionists began displacing Muslims, buying land with the goal of "transferring" Arabs out of Eretz Israel. 

When people of one religion were peacefully disposed towards their neighbors of another religion, until newly arrived adherents of that religion began driving them off their land, then yes--it is very odd to simply ascribe subsequent conflict to a religious difference which had always been there. Doing so frames out the real drivers of conflict, and so any real possibility of understanding and resolving the conflict. That's in your favor if you don't want it resolved.

I.e. it's all the Jew's fault.  Someone is showing more of themselves than they realize.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 08:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You spelled Hamas wrong.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
"Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government"
Sure they do, it's a number provided by a terrorist organization with an agenda to destroy the state of Israel.  Taking them at their word is no different than believing any claim out of North Korea.  Only an idiot or someone with an agenda would do so.

The doctors working at the hospitals in Gaza are "terrorists" then? 
I'm betting their "agenda" is to get electricity and medical supplies.

I can take them at their word for now, surely. 

Thinking with labels and dismissing whatever "terrorists" say without
question also bespeaks an agenda.  It's a recipe for disinformation.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 08:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I.e. it's all the Jew's fault.  Someone is showing more of themselves than they realize.


That doesn't look like a refutation of the factual record. 

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 08:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You spelled Hamas wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

"Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government"




Sure they do, it's a number provided by a terrorist organization with an agenda to destroy the state of Israel.  Taking them at their word is no different than believing any claim out of North Korea.  Only an idiot or someone with an agenda would do so.

BTW, don't take my word for it, take the Biden administrations.
 
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:10 PM)Dill Wrote: The doctors working at the hospitals in Gaza are "terrorists" then? 
I'm betting their "agenda" is to get electricity and medical supplies.

They work for Hamas, so yes.  


Quote:I can take them at their word for now, surely. 

Sure, just like you can take the word of a doctor in the North Korean army or Iran's Revolutionary Guard.  They also have no other agenda.

Quote:Thinking with labels and dismissing whatever "terrorists" say without
question also bespeaks an agenda.  It's a recipe for disinformation.

Correctly labeling the Gaza ministry of Health as an organ of Hamas is being factually accurate.  The Biden administration agrees with me.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:12 PM)Dill Wrote: That doesn't look like a refutation of the factual record. 

You going to ask me to refute The Protocols of the Elders of Zion next?  Thank you for not denying that you blame this entire conflict on the Jewish people though, it would have been a hollow denial.  Like I said, you're revealing more than you intend, but I'm here to see it.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You going to ask me to refute The Protocols of the Elders of Zion next?  Thank you for not denying that you blame this entire conflict on the Jewish people though, it would have been a hollow denial.  Like I said, you're revealing more than you intend, but I'm here to see it.

Innuendo is still your preferred mode of argument. 

I don't "blame this entire conflict on the Jewish people," but I do see Zionism as the primary cause of the conflict, going back to the 1880s.

Could be you see that too, and that's why you keep framing my response as revealing some larger anti-semitic intent, a diversion from
the historical record, which tells us who, where and how the conflict started. 

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They work for Hamas, so yes.  

Sure, just like you can take the word of a doctor in the North Korean army or Iran's Revolutionary Guard.  They also have no other agenda.

Correctly labeling the Gaza ministry of Health as an organ of Hamas is being factually accurate.  The Biden administration agrees with me.

Their death counts in previous wars have been pretty accurate, according to organizations like Human Rights Watch.

Death certificates have to be issued, surviving children passed to next of kin, inheritances settled, etc. Not that easy to just
make up records that other organizations will eventually be reviewing.  

The flip side of what you doing here is reflected in your sudden Trust of Biden. You write as if only Hamas could have an agenda.
Like Israel and the US don't have a giant stake in managing how this war is framed regarding the bombing of civilians. 
The references to NK and Iran indicate how deeply ingrained your labeling-instead-of-analysis approach is.  Reach for the Fox
stereotype and all questions are settled. 

Looks like that mistaken report of the hospital bombing is having a useful effect for Israel and the US, if it contributes to distrust of Hamas. 

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:35 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't "blame this entire conflict on the Jewish people," but I do see Zionism as the primary cause of the conflict, going back to the 1880s.

"I don't blame the conflict on the Jewish people, just a portion of the Jewish people."  You're precious.

Quote:Could be you see that too, and that's why you keep framing my response as revealing some larger anti-semitic intent, a diversion from
the historical record, which tells us who, where and how the conflict started. 

I don't have to frame it at all, it does an adequate job on its own.  Using your own words, in context does literally all the work for me.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Their death counts in previous wars have been pretty accurate, according to organizations like Human Rights Watch.

Death certificates have to be issued, surviving children passed to next of kin, inheritances settled, etc. Not that easy to just
make up records that other organizations will eventually be reviewing.  

The flip side of what you doing here is reflected in your sudden Trust of Biden. You write as if only Hamas could have an agenda.
Like Israel and the US don't have a giant stake in managing how this war is framed regarding the bombing of civilians.


I don't trust Biden, you do.  Hence your sudden reversal is interesting.  Everyone has an agenda, but Hamas' stated agenda is the utter destruction of an entire nation of people.  Let me know when Israel or the US has such a stated agenda.

 

Quote:The references to NK and Iran indicate how deeply ingrained your labeling-instead-of-analysis approach is.  Reach for the Fox
stereotype and all questions are settled. 

I see, Nazi comparisons are fine when Dill makes them, but comparisons to N. Korea or Iran are clearly Fox News inspired indoctrination.  You have no idea how much I'm enjoying every post you're making here.  It's like a how to guide to illustrate your own hypocrisy and bigotry.

Quote:Looks like that mistaken report of the hospital bombing is having a useful effect for Israel and the US, if it contributes to distrust of Hamas. 

LOL, you literally just said it "contributes to the distrust of Hamas"?!?  As if anyone with a brain ever trusted a terrorist organization that engages in wanton rape and murder and needed to be exposed as untrustworthy?!?  Oh man, I could not have scripted your downfall any better if I had written it myself.  You're literally defending terrorists from being "distrusted".  Exposing yourself as a literal apologist for terrorists after all these years, it's really quite fascinating.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - TheLeonardLeap - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Looks like that mistaken report of the hospital bombing is having a useful effect for Israel and the US, if it contributes to distrust of Hamas. 

Umm

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 10:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Umm

[Image: dexter-mask.gif]

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Belsnickel - 10-27-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You going to ask me to refute The Protocols of the Elders of Zion next?  Thank you for not denying that you blame this entire conflict on the Jewish people though, it would have been a hollow denial.  Like I said, you're revealing more than you intend, but I'm here to see it.

Zionism is not a completely Jewish movement. Evangelicals in the United States are especially complicit in the actions that have taken place in the region. But I also want to make clear in this conversation that Zionism is not synonymous with the current Israeli state just as Judaism, Zionism, and Israel are not synonymous.

I understand that you have your reasons for saying what you do about Dill, whatever, that's between you and him. I just want to make sure that it is understood that there are these differences because being reductive in the way the surface level reading of your statements are is not helpful to any conversation on this topic. Just as Dill's apparent blame towards Zionism comes across as reductive and unhelpful.

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-27-2023

(10-27-2023, 07:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Zionism is not a completely Jewish movement. Evangelicals in the United States are especially complicit in the actions that have taken place in the region. But I also want to make clear in this conversation that Zionism is not synonymous with the current Israeli state just as Judaism, Zionism, and Israel are not synonymous.

I understand that you have your reasons for saying what you do about Dill, whatever, that's between you and him. I just want to make sure that it is understood that there are these differences because being reductive in the way the surface level reading of your statements are is not helpful to any conversation on this topic. Just as Dill's apparent blame towards Zionism comes across as reductive and unhelpful.

I don't think the evangelical position of bringing on the end of days is applicable to this discussion, nor is it really part of Dill's argument.  I understand what you're saying, but I also don't think many people make any distinction between Zionism and Jewish people in general.  Nor does Dill make any effort to indicate otherwise, although he probably will now after that amazingly bad post about Israel and the US trying to "discredit Hamas".

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Luvnit2 - 10-27-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:10 PM)Dill Wrote: The doctors working at the hospitals in Gaza are "terrorists" then? 
I'm betting their "agenda" is to get electricity and medical supplies.

I can take them at their word for now, surely. 

Thinking with labels and dismissing whatever "terrorists" say without
question also bespeaks an agenda.  It's a recipe for disinformation.

I try to understand different points of view, but you lose me in your arguments. Hamas terror partner in Gaza  launched a rocket towards Israel within 1 mile of a Gaza hospital, it malfunctioned and if we take Hamas at their word killed over 500 Palestinians. including children. How many other failed rockets fired with Gaza killed innocent Palestinians? Does Hamas include they killed in. their numbers?

Why would anyone take the word of a terrorist organization's word with sole goal is to eliminate every Jew on earth, not just Israel, but the world. We know their agenda as they offer it freely. Yet, you defend them.

I have asked this question numerous times, What has terrorist Hamas done to protect their own Palestinian people from harm? They started this crap, yet some like you want to give them justification for killing innocent people. I am baffled.

Also, Hamas fired a missile into an apartment building in Tel Aviv again. Where i your outrage for Hamas continuing to target civilians? 

RE: Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation - Dill - 10-27-2023

(10-26-2023, 10:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't trust Biden, you do.  Hence your sudden reversal is interesting.  Everyone has an agenda, but Hamas' stated agenda is the utter destruction of an entire nation of people.  Let me know when Israel or the US has such a stated agenda.

 I see, Nazi comparisons are fine when Dill makes them, but comparisons to N. Korea or Iran are clearly Fox News inspired indoctrination.  You have no idea how much I'm enjoying every post you're making here.  It's like a how to guide to illustrate your own hypocrisy and bigotry.

LOL, you literally just said it "contributes to the distrust of Hamas"?!?  As if anyone with a brain ever trusted a terrorist organization that engages in wanton rape and murder and needed to be exposed as untrustworthy?!?  Oh man, I could not have scripted your downfall any better if I had written it myself.  You're literally defending terrorists from being "distrusted".  Exposing yourself as a literal apologist for terrorists after all these years, it's really quite fascinating.

I don't "trust" anyone. I gather information and compare and contrast using the historical record available. I don't let labels think
for me--not even regarding claims by NK and Iran. You've translated that superficial practice from the domestic to international sphere now.
People can both condemn Hamas' "stated agenda" and Israel's unstated (at least that of the Sharon and Netanyahu governments), to
deny a two-state solution and incrementally appropriate what remains of Palestinian land. Your demand is apparently that only one of
these goals be condemned or even recognized.

You should specify which "fine" Nazi comparisons you are referring to; Otherwise that is just more innuendo.
I'm definitely NOT closing out actual fleshed-out fact-based comparisons to NK or Iran or anyone. I'm just saying you don't get to
let labels argue for you.  Iran as "the head of the snake" and the real cause of current conflict is, yes, a Fox News construction. 
It's based on a one-sided conception of causes to the conflict, and part of a general noise about Hamas that drowns out any
questions about how 2.2 million Palestinians came to be trapped on a narrow strip of land surrounded by fences and Israeli guns,
and why the US is supporting that containment and the sabotage of the peace process.

You cannot help projecting a lot into the texts of people who disagree with you, but the last paragraph above is maybe a
record for the number of erroneous conclusions compacted into such small space.  Yes, the initial reporting on Hamas
has, in my view, backfired, rendering them more untrustworthy to people following the conflict--that means people in the
ME who have found them more trustworthy than the IDF. That's a description, not a defense. Many of those people would happily
ask why you find a country which engages in wanton destruction of Palestinian homes and lives is trustworthy. You would know
this if you did not censor your own news intake.

Defining me as an "apologist for terrorism" is just an attempt to close out principled research process before reaching conclusions. It's a demand that people start with your conclusion, and then select facts and moral perspectives which fit it. By your definition, anyone who stands on International Human Rights Law in this conflict is an apologist for terrorism. You cannot make a case against this law nor can you argue from facts, hence the pretense of "enjoying" my "downfall" as a substitute.