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+---- Thread: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male (/Thread-Cincinnati-campus-officer-shoots-and-kills-unarmed-black-male)
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - GMDino - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 10:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Not talking about this case because I didn't see anything to cause any escalation, but in general you are never going to win an argument with a police officer. Do what they say, and take it up later. Maybe it works out for you and maybe it won't, but you are never going to win on the scene.
Sometimes you can't win at all.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/police-brutality-reports_55b65b79e4b0074ba5a53417?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013§ion=politics
But in general I agree that you should just be calm and do what is asked. I also understand why some people react badly just as some cops act badly.
Either way no one should die because they are irritated about one or the other.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - xxlt - 07-30-2015
(07-26-2015, 07:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The bottom line is this, Bland is not the paid professional in this situation, but she has an even greater reason (i.e. self preservation) to keep her cool than the officer involved. People have become way too obsessed with the concept of being "disrespected" and they consequently make stupid decisions. Be the adult, and the smart one, and act in your own best interests.
I was so happy to see the above quote. I have not heard enough people say this ^ and it seems so obviously correct to me. I actually have heard people praise/defend Bland for running her mouth to the cop and say they would do the same thing. To me, that is just not smart strategy. Let's say the cop stopping Bland/or you/or our buddy is evil incarnate and has no reason to make the stop and is a disgrace to every good officer who has worn the badge. Let's say his racist/sexist/abusive rhetoric toward you is relentless. It seems to me in a situation like this the shrewd strategy is to get out of the stop as quickly as possible by complying and letting the officer write up your citation(s)/warning(s) or if you are going to jail get there as expeditiously as possible while doing nothing to make the situation any worse. Once you have gotten out of that ordeal, from a safe place down the road or the relative safety of the jail you can begin to document the officer's misconduct and attempt to have the officer held accountable for same. Why on earth you would escalate the conflict is something I can't understand.
It is even more astonishing to me when the civilian is black. I have heard for as long as I remember about "the talk" that black parents have with their children. If you are stopped for nothing more than being black (and it happens - and it is wrong) parents allegedly tell their children you are not to run, you are to keep your hands out of your pockets, you are to be polite and not raise your voice and you are not to make any sudden moves. Now, that all seems like common sense to me but if you had been told that as a child even if you were drunk or high at the time of a stop I would think that sage advice would come back into your consciousness and you would, as SSF said, act in your own best interest. I am astonished when people do not and then others cheer them for running their mouth or being non-compliant or defiant with a LEO.
As to the UC incident...driver did not have tag on vehicle so stop was legit in my opinion. I thought Deters calling it a bogus stop was dumb. People license their vehicles because they get cited if they don't. People alter or remove plates from stolen vehicles or vehicles they are operating unlawfully. So, the cop stopping a vehicle with no tag is legit. Driver could not produce OL. Again, that is illegal. Minor violations but we are up to two now... The bottle of booze on the floor surrendered to cop looked unopened but it did seem the driver was impaired - so now we have the possibility of him operating vehicle under influence. That could still be a misdemeanor. But above the minor crimes, no tag, no OL, possibly driving drunk - the worst thing driver was guilty of was putting himself in harm's way by starting the car when he was told to take of his seatbelt, pulling the door shut, and trying to drive away. Judgment may have been impaired by alcohol or other drugs, but still, bad decisions. They were followed by a bad decision by the cop, who I am pretty sure would not have shot this guy had he not tried to flee. However, the cop's choice to pull his pistol and fire was also a horrible decision. There was no way the guy could run him over when he was standing next to the driver's door. He could have used verbal commands, his body, baton, chemical spray, or taser to try to keep the man from fleeing. Or he could have just let him flee and pursued him. Yeah, that endangers other people but so does pulling your pistol and firing it at point blank range. I don't think the continuum of force says if the subject is stupid you are justified in using deadly force. It says you are justified if your life is threatened and this officer's life wasn't. I am not sure what Ohio law on murder is, but this case looks like at minimum manslaughter and possibly murder.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - fredtoast - 07-30-2015
Worst thing about this story is that the police report of the incident was a complete lie and the other officers who witnessed this backed up the lie.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - GMDino - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 12:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Worst thing about this story is that the police report of the incident was a complete lie and the other officers who witnessed this backed up the lie.
Bingo.
It can be spun any which way that the officer right or wrong or whatever...but HE lied. He knew something was wrong.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - RoyleRedlegs - 07-30-2015
random rant based on facebook posts: Is there anything more annoying than college-sheltered white liberal kids who have a "blog" and are the most condescending ***** in the world on issues like this? I mean condescending to EVERYONE.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - Vas Deferens - 07-30-2015
(07-29-2015, 07:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Then you assume wrong. So a cop kills a guy and is indicted and you hold that up as why you left town?It must be UC cops that forced you out because the CPD is now held up as a model foece in community relations.
No. I moved to get away from outright and generally accepted bigotry. At the time, CPD wasn't a model anything.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - Rotobeast - 07-30-2015
I really wonder why LEOs are not given small spike-strips to slide under the rear tire, to prevent drive-offs ?
It wouldn't be hard to drop it and slide it under the tire, after visually confirming the driver is not an immediate threat.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - GMDino - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 02:21 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I really wonder why LEOs are not given small spike-strips to slide under the rear tire, to prevent drive-offs ?
It wouldn't be hard to drop it and slide it under the tire, after visually confirming the driver is not an immediate threat.
That's a damn fine idea that makes too much sense to use because it would probably "cost too much".
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - xxlt - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 12:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Worst thing about this story is that the police report of the incident was a complete lie and the other officers who witnessed this backed up the lie.
That is perhaps not the worst part, but it is certainly relevant and I commend you for highlighting it. However, let's take a step back and remember that eye witness testimony is often contradictory between witnesses and that if you have an allegiance to someone (your family member, coworker, whomever) you are inclined to believe their account and if your adrenaline is pounding because you realize that person is in danger it can distort your perception and make you see or want to see something differently. So maybe the other cops are just horrible liars or maybe they gave their friend the benefit of the doubt and thought they saw or wanted to see things they didn't in the heat of the moment. As someone else said, let the investigation play out fully and let the system mete out punishment and hope for just outcomes for all involved.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - xxlt - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 12:19 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: random rant based on facebook posts: Is there anything more annoying than college-sheltered white liberal kids who have a "blog" and are the most condescending ***** in the world on issues like this? I mean condescending to EVERYONE.
Encountered a bit of that myself last week in connection with the bland incident. It is annoying indeed
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - xxlt - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 02:21 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I really wonder why LEOs are not given small spike-strips to slide under the rear tire, to prevent drive-offs ?
It wouldn't be hard to drop it and slide it under the tire, after visually confirming the driver is not an immediate threat.
Thought the same thing. Easy way to temporarily detain vehicle.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - RoyleRedlegs - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 02:39 PM)xxlt Wrote: Encountered a bit of that myself last week in connection with the bland incident. It is annoying indeed
"You don't understand how this social event impacts us all, my heart cries for the..."
No, we understand...just not all of us need to grandstand on facebook for moral supremacy
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - xxlt - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 02:49 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: "You don't understand how this social event impacts us all, my heart cries for the..."
No, we understand...just not all of us need to grandstand on facebook for moral supremacy
We cool kids do our grandstanding right here!
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - fredtoast - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 02:36 PM)xxlt Wrote: That is perhaps not the worst part, but it is certainly relevant and I commend you for highlighting it. However, let's take a step back and remember that eye witness testimony is often contradictory between witnesses and that if you have an allegiance to someone (your family member, coworker, whomever) you are inclined to believe their account and if your adrenaline is pounding because you realize that person is in danger it can distort your perception and make you see or want to see something differently. So maybe the other cops are just horrible liars or maybe they gave their friend the benefit of the doubt and thought they saw or wanted to see things they didn't in the heat of the moment. As someone else said, let the investigation play out fully and let the system mete out punishment and hope for just outcomes for all involved.
One cops lies you indict the cop. All the cops lie and you have to start looking at the entire force. you can no longer say it was just one rogue cop when the others lie to protect him.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - xxlt - 07-30-2015
(07-30-2015, 02:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: One cops lies you indict the cop. All the cops lie and you have to start looking at the entire force. you can no longer say it was just one rogue cop when the others lie to protect him.
I understand and there may be a problem with the entire force. There may be a problem with these two guys who allegedly lied to back up the shooter. I really haven't looked at the shooter statement or the witness statements. I know the video seems to show pretty conclusively the shooter did not follow protocol, and I commend the prosecutor for more or less saying that. I am just saying - and as an attorney I am sure you know this - that everything that happened and every thing said subsequently by witnesses has to be considered in whole before making blanket statements that "all cops are killers" or "liars" or even that the witnesses are liars. Let the PD and the prosecutor and as appropriate a jury sort through everything.
Such a sorting may reveal the other two cops were model officers who fell into the trap of believing what the shooter told them and shaping their statements accordingly and perhaps not consciously. That kind of stuff can happen, especially in such an emotionally charged situation. Or, maybe it will reveal that they knew damn good and well it was a bad shooting and they were trying to protect their buddy. While I see that as wrong, I also understand it is sort of a human thing and again a trap many fall into. It is sort of like Clinton denying his affair with Lewinsky. Some would even commend the officers for lying to protect their fellow officer - again I would not do that but some (maybe even some here) would. They will point to the alleged drunk driving, the non-compliance, the prior record of the victim et al and say that while the cop messed up we all make mistakes and in the scheme of things them lying for him when he shot a "bad guy" is justified. I don't agree with that position, but some will take it.
The case looks pretty (no pun intended) black and white but with regard to the witness statements there are perhaps some shades of gray if one looks closely at what witnesses heard on the radio, what they saw on the scene when they arrived, and what they were told. Perhaps they inferred things in their statements and filled in "facts" they believed but could not have known. Again, humans tend to do that - we tend to fill in the gaps to make sense of what we have seen and heard. It isn't always conscious and isn't always with intent to deceive.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - Rotobeast - 08-03-2015
Just neutrally adding this....
Found it and thought you guys could pick at it.
![[Image: dubose%20shooting_zps4ce7ioyy.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/rotobeast/dubose%20shooting_zps4ce7ioyy.jpg)
If it is too small, just use the zoom feature on your browser.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - GMDino - 08-03-2015
(08-03-2015, 03:56 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Just neutrally adding this....
Found it and thought you guys could pick at it.
If it is too small, just use the zoom feature on your browser.
Seems a lot to try and defend the officer and make it seem like killing someone was justifiable because...accident.
Given the above I recommend officers just be free to shoot at a car if it swerves. Might be best to save the unsuspecting other people on the road, ya know?
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - Rotobeast - 08-03-2015
(08-03-2015, 04:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: Seems a lot to try and defend the officer and make it seem like killing someone was justifiable because...accident.
Given the above I recommend officers just be free to shoot at a car if it swerves. Might be best to save the unsuspecting other people on the road, ya know?
As I said... I am neutral on the "info".
A tragedy is a tragedy.
However, you know this is something the defense will go with in court.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - Belsnickel - 08-03-2015
(08-03-2015, 04:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: Seems a lot to try and defend the officer and make it seem like killing someone was justifiable because...accident.
Given the above I recommend officers just be free to shoot at a car if it swerves. Might be best to save the unsuspecting other people on the road, ya know?
There is a difference between seeing a vehicle swerving and having a vehicle start driving away dragging you along with it. The latter is a threat to life and limb. I am looking forward to finding out more about this case because I am still undecided on it, but hyperbole like what you posted here does no good to either side.
RE: Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male - GMDino - 08-03-2015
(08-03-2015, 05:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is a difference between seeing a vehicle swerving and having a vehicle start driving away dragging you along with it. The latter is a threat to life and limb. I am looking forward to finding out more about this case because I am still undecided on it, but hyperbole like what you posted here does no good to either side.
I agree with you and it was hyperbole.
But I posted because I've seen the argument that killing a driver suspected of being under the influence is OK because they could have done more harm to someone else.