(06-09-2023, 01:25 PM)Dill Wrote: Thanks for the feedback. There were two links in that which could have been separated into two posts.

Both had the common intent of shifting right vs left contrasts onto a more solid, if incomplete, grounding in data.

The first link, derived from the Free Speech project at Georgetown U., directly addressed the "silencing" of college speakers, sometimes by violence and threats. My goal in presenting it was to encourage caution regarding MSM coverage of "cancel culture" and the like. They spend more time with sensational cases, so that is a motivation to create sensational cases. The resulting coverage then skews people's perceptions. 20-30 incidents a year on 10 campuses doesn't seem like much when you remember there are 4,000+ institutions of higher ed in the U.S.

Quote:The second link was to address the logic of right/left comparison at a more general level, which expands assessments of violence beyond college campuses, but doesn't exclude them. The study's hypothesis reached back into previous work on right/left violence to emphasize features imminent to each side's worldview that account for one being more violence prone than the other.  

Quote:I think Islamic terrorism was included as a separate element because they wanted to avoid forcing them into the American (North and South) and European political spectrum, but they needed to include them because the study was also global in nature.

Quote:I tried your suggested Youtube experiment. I found that the "left" search and the "right" search often called up the same videos. My hesitancy about using Youtube to assess quantity is that there is no reason to suppose the number of videos breaking one way or the other corresponds to anything other than the intensity of organization of one side as opposed to the other. This is why it is important that states and the federal gov. compile data on political violence, against which we can check our impressions of the magnitude of a perceived threat.

(06-09-2023, 01:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You must never be on social media then, because it's rampant.  As I mentioned earlier, you can't disagree with a single issue without earning the label.  Straight man not interested in a transwoman with a penis, transphobe.  Lesbian woman not interested in a transwoman with a penis, transphobe.  Don't think biological males should compete in women's sports, transphobe.  Don't think transwomen with penises should be housed in women's prisons or stay in female only shelters, transphobe.  There's literally not one thing you can disagree with this movement about without "earning" the label.

(06-08-2023, 09:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Scantily clad adults gyrating in front of children has no sexual connotation?  You've rather exposed yourself on this one.

Quote:Are said cheerleaders within close proximity to children?  Are children providing money to the cheerleaders?

Quote:I said ANY adult attempting to have the conversation with children is disturbing, not just transgender adults.  So my point about your mischaracterization stands.  Do you disagree?  Are you yearning to discuss sexual topics with children not your own?  Do you not see any problem with adults doing so?

Quote:Bullshit.  The recent explosion of supposedly transgender children shows this to be an utter falsehood.

https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-transyouth-data/number-of-transgender-children-seeking-treatment-surges-in-u-s-idUKL1N3142UU

In 2021, about 42,000 children and teens across the United States received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, nearly triple the number in 2017, according to data Komodo compiled for Reuters. Gender dysphoria is defined as the distress caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and the one assigned to them at birth.

Quote:Is this real gender dysphoria or social contagion.  Even Bill Maher is calling bullshit on this.





I know The Hill is a far right site, but please bear with me.

(06-09-2023, 02:57 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Before I begin replying to your response, I must first state that I find it rather concerning that in a discussion between you and I about your assertions of transgender ideology, you saw the need to pivot to drag shows. The two things are not related, as the overwhelming majority of queens are gay, straight or bisexual. Why did you feel the need to interject them into a transgender discussion? This is a common tactic by the anti-trans crowd that I was rather disappointed to see you employ.

Quote:Perhaps you could provide a video example of what you deem sexual? Interpreting it as such doesn't automatically make it the case. Unless you can provide evidence of this being a frequent occurrence and that those occurrences are actually sexual in nature, then it's a purposely disingenuous attempt to label drag shows as somehow problematic.

Quote:If you found it sexual, that's your right, but your opinion doesn't make it the case for others or the situation in general.

Quote:Parents are historically inept when it comes to discussing topics of sexuality with their children; many avoid the topic altogether or give inadequate explanations that leaves the child still curious and desiring answers. The reason children are asking questions or seeking clarity from others is because the parents have failed to do so or the child feels uncomfortable going to them. This is why sex education is schools is so vital.

Quote:Are you familiar with the history of left-handedness? It's a great teaching tool in these discussions.

Quote:As public acceptance and acknowledgement increases, so will the number of people who will be comfortable enough to state their true identity.

(06-09-2023, 01:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You must never be on social media then, because it's rampant.  As I mentioned earlier, you can't disagree with a single issue without earning the label.  Straight man not interested in a transwoman with a penis, transphobe.  Lesbian woman not interested in a transwoman with a penis, transphobe.  Don't think biological males should compete in women's sports, transphobe.  Don't think transwomen with penises should be housed in women's prisons or stay in female only shelters, transphobe.  There's literally not one thing you can disagree with this movement about without "earning" the label.

(06-09-2023, 03:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hmm, I find your assertion interesting, as we frequently hear about laws against drag shows being transphobic.  I'm not employing anything btw, I'm making a case against sexually charged performances for children.

Quote:You could go on LibsofTikTok's twitter feed and find hundreds of examples.  Before you go the predictable route and dismiss the account as whatever -phob or -ist you choose you'll note that in the instances I am referring to the account is merely reposting content posted by others.

I'll post a link for those interested.  Kindly restrict yourself to the videos in question.  I am not interested in the accounts personal opinions, and in fact disagree with many of them.  I am only sharing the videos they have discovered.

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/media

Quote:So you're going the subjective route now?  Would you consider a half dressed adult dancing suggestively in front of children and then having said children slip money into their clothing to be sexual?

Quote:Oh my god, you literally just went the we know better than parents route.  Unless your job is specifically to discuss sexual topics, e.g. a sex-ed teacher, you should not be having those types of discussions with children.  We are discussion literal children here, no adolescents.

Quote:The instances of left handedness increased at a gradual rate, they did not explode.  If this hypothesis were true then why haven't we seen a similar rise in transgenderism among adults as we do among children/adolescents?  It's acceptable now, right?  So why aren't adults coming out as trans like Catelyn Jenner at the same rate as younger people?  If your left handed position were true then we should see similar numbers in all age ranges.  Unless your assertion is that younger people are more likely to be trans, which begs the question why?  I don't doubt for a second that there are more people who publicly identify as transgender now because of increased acceptance.  But there is zero chance that the huge upswing in younger people identifying as such compared to other age ranges is solely due to this.


But largely only in children and adolescents?  Something very wrong with your logic here.

(06-09-2023, 04:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am on social media a fair amount. I just carefully curate my social media to avoid asshats. My social media is almost all Scout-centric, outdoorsy, local business type stuff.

(06-09-2023, 05:17 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'll ask again - what do drag queens / shows have to do with the transgender ideology you claim is being pushed? The majority of queens are straight, gay or bisexual. Do you think those particular groups are also pushing an agenda? Your logic seems muddled and disjointed on this issue.

Quote:That's a dispicable account filled with hated and misinformation, promoted by the likes of Matt Walsh and TurningPointUSA. If you have specific examples from the account, then post them and we can discuss. However, I'm not going to dig through - what I know from experience - to be a collection of vile filth.

Quote:It depends on the context, which is why I asked for examples. None of what you're stating makes it objectively or intentionally sexual. Who is finding it sexually charged in your estimation - the queen, the child, the parent, all of them? Since you're opposed to the "subjective route" - please provide the objective evidence that such an instance was intended to be sexual or perceived so by those involved. Otherwise, you're simply projecting your own subjective interpretation.

Quote:No one went that route. You are just asserting that I did, which you have a tendency to do.

Quote:What I stated was that parents have historically done a poor job at discussing matters of a sexual nature with their children. However, I never stated that anyone knows better than the parents; but instead, that there has been a failure of parents in that regard, which is why having sexual education is so vital. 

Quote:While it's more acceptable to come out as transgender, there are still very real risks to doing so. Adults are prone to be more hesitant because of their life experience, engrained fears, expectation of negative reactions. Young people will not share these concerns at the same levels or be as risk adverse in their decision making process to express their true identity. Younger people - as a generality - currently have much more accepting peer groups, better methods for finding and communicating with others like themselves and vastly improved / more widely available resources for learning about their situations.

Quote:Taking these things into account, it rather easily explains why younger people are much more likely to come out than adults, and why younger age ranges are representing that expected trend.

(06-09-2023, 05:17 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'll ask again - what do drag queens / shows have to do with the transgender ideology you claim is being pushed? The majority of queens are straight, gay or bisexual. Do you think those particular groups are also pushing an agenda? Your logic seems muddled and disjointed on this issue.

Because the LGBTQ+ "nation" all flies under the same flag...

That's a dispicable account filled with hated and misinformation, promoted by the likes of Matt Walsh and TurningPointUSA. If you have specific examples from the account, then post them and we can discuss. However, I'm not going to dig through - what I know from experience - to be a collection of vile filth.

What's filty is people partaking in immoral activities preying on the gullible, accepting, easily influenced minds of children, in an attempt to "normalize" their behavior.

It depends on the context, which is why I asked for examples. None of what you're stating makes it objectively or intentionally sexual. Who is finding it sexually charged in your estimation - the queen, the child, the parent, all of them? Since you're opposed to the "subjective route" - please provide the objective evidence that such an instance was intended to be sexual or perceived so by those involved. Otherwise, you're simply projecting your own subjective interpretation.

Don't play coy, drag shows are an "art form" display of the alternative sexual lifestyle that the LGBTQ+ community shares, in fantasy format.


What I stated was that parents have historically done a poor job at discussing matters of a sexual nature with their children. However, I never stated that anyone knows better than the parents; but instead, that there has been a failure of parents in that regard, which is why having sexual education is so vital. 

So, you're an expert in that field, and can back this up with your countless volumes of research and peer judged writings on the topic?

While it's more acceptable to come out as transgender, there are still very real risks to doing so. Adults are prone to be more hesitant because of their life experience, engrained fears, expectation of negative reactions. Young people will not share these concerns at the same levels or be as risk adverse in their decision making process to express their true identity. Younger people - as a generality - currently have much more accepting peer groups, better methods for finding and communicating with others like themselves and vastly improved / more widely available resources for learning about their situations.

Taking these things into account, it rather easily explains why younger people are much more likely to come out than adults, and why younger age ranges are representing that expected trend.

If alternative lifestyle groups weren't working hard to present themselves toward children, how would so many children these days even know of their existence?  The adults that have lived the struggle are the ones who "know" who they are, and therefore should be the ones coming out.  As said previously, children are easily influenced and can be convinced of things weather true or not.

SunsetBengal Wrote:Because the LGBTQ+ "nation" all flies under the same flag...

Quote:What's filty is people partaking in immoral activities preying on the gullible, accepting, easily influenced minds of children, in an attempt to "normalize" their behavior.

Quote:Don't play coy, drag shows are an "art form" display of the alternative sexual lifestyle that the LGBTQ+ community shares, in fantasy format.

Quote:If alternative lifestyle groups weren't working hard to present themselves toward children, how would so many children these days even know of their existence?  The adults that have lived the struggle are the ones who "know" who they are, and therefore should be the ones coming out.  As said previously, children are easily influenced and can be convinced of things weather true or not.

Quote:So, you're an expert in that field, and can back this up with your countless volumes of research and peer judged writings on the topic?

(06-12-2023, 07:03 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Are you're implying that the LGBTQIA+ community is a monolith? Does the same apply to the heterosexual community? 

Your statement just seems rather vacuous, because the only actual unified goals of the LGBTQIA+ community are equality and acceptance.  

Well, they all live under the same flag, and consider themselves to be a unified voting bloc, so there is that.


If you are truly concerned with groups that prey on children, shouldn't your real focus and outrage be targeted at straight white males? If you examine the number of actual sexual crimes committed against children by that group, compared to the LGBTQIA+ community, I'm sure you would agree that the former is far more likely to prey on children than the latter. 

That's not what I said.  I said prey upon the minds of the easily influenced children in an attempt to normalize (gain acceptance) of abnormal behavior.


Are all performance arts a display of sexual lifestyle, or is it just drag queens? Do painters, dancers, musicians, etc., fall under this umbrella, or are drag queens just somehow unique? 

If you have a group of five drag queens -- two straight, two gay and one transgender -- what sexual lifestyle is the group displaying? 

Are heterosexuals that partake in various forms of cosplay displaying a sexual lifestyle? 

I was speaking specifically about events such as "drag queen story hour" and the like.  As for other types of entertainers, they are all as equally entitled to succeed or fail according to their merits, it is up to the parents to shield their children from forms of entertainment that does not represent the values which they intend to instill into them.  As for heterosexuals partaking in cosplay?  It's absolutely an expression of sexual fetish lifestyle, and should be kept to the realm of adults with mature, more fully developed minds.


My stance is that children should be allowed to freely become who they are without any external influences or opinions forcing them into a specific box; that also includes the pressure to be straight or binary. 

I also see no issue with children being aware of the existence of all different types of human beings. 

When children become adults, they are free to make their own decisions about their personality and sexuality, the entire point is that children are easily influenced minds incapable of seeing the possible bad outcomes from making permanent, life altering decisions.  That's why they are considered minors under the law, and their parents charged with their protection from harm.


Did you apply this same criteria to yourself with your first two assertions that I quoted? It would appear you didn't since you failed to provide countless volumes of research and peer reviewed writings to back up those claims. Given that fact, would you agree that it gives the appearance of hypocrisy to ask the same of someone else?

You are the one who is professing info like you're some sort of authority on the matter, I just assumed that you must be a published expert on the topics at hand.

However, if you're serious about research and delving more into the topic, I am willing to have an ongoing dialogue on the topic. 

This is a great launch point, that provides you with an incredible amount research and writings within the references:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249807101_A_review_of_parental_involvement_in_sex_education_The_role_for_effective_communication_in_British_families

Thanks, but no thanks.  I've gathered enough information over the course of my 54 years from experiences and personal interactions and relationships with friends and family on various sides of the sexuality spectrum to have formed my own opinions.

Quote:Well, they all live under the same flag, and consider themselves to be a unified voting bloc, so there is that.

Quote:That's not what I said.  I said prey upon the minds of the easily influenced children in an attempt to normalize (gain acceptance) of abnormal behavior.

Quote:I was speaking specifically about events such as "drag queen story hour" and the like.  As for other types of entertainers, they are all as equally entitled to succeed or fail according to their merits, it is up to the parents to shield their children from forms of entertainment that does not represent the values which they intend to instill into them.  As for heterosexuals partaking in cosplay?  It's absolutely an expression of sexual fetish lifestyle, and should be kept to the realm of adults with mature, more fully developed minds.

Quote:When children become adults, they are free to make their own decisions about their personality and sexuality, the entire point is that children are easily influenced minds incapable of seeing the possible bad outcomes from making permanent, life altering decisions.  That's why they are considered minors under the law, and their parents charged with their protection from harm.

(06-12-2023, 08:10 PM)pally Wrote: If that were true the Log Cabin Republicans wouldn't exist

That's a rather blatantly partisan comment to make.  This whole conversation the terms democrat and republican hadn't even came up, until now..


who gets to decide "normal" just because something is normal for you does not automatically mean it is normal for another.  If every hormone and chemical signal in a child's body says gay or lesbian that is their normal. Your feelings for the opposit sex are just as perplexing to them as their feelings are to you

Every one of us was born as a product of heterosexual sex.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that heterosexuality is the predominate sexuality world wide, therefore "the norm".

The only people who sexualize drag queen story hours are right-wing adults trying to make a political point.  The children of preschool age don't see the person behind the costume. So while you are busy getting your panties in a twist over OMG a man in a dress...they see a brightly colored often glittery dress with sequins and feathers.  They see big hair and outrageous makeup.  They see the character.  And all that character is doing is sitting there reading a book to them, just like someone dressed like a super hero or a Disney princess does

Why do you think that children should be exposed to alternative lifestyle persons wearing costumes?  Seems more like you just want to support "normalizing the abnormal" behavior, and perhaps encourage new, unsuspecting children to think that perhaps they could be the queen behind the costume.  If true, that's really bizarre..


Serious question, did you decide you liked girls at age 18 or more likely 12-14?  You knew you liked girls early in your life and no amount of persuasion would make you suddenly like boys.  Young people know they are gay or lesbian at the same age others know they are straight.  Failure to acknowledge that isolates a child and injures their mental health.  And if you don't want outside influences affecting their decision then let's get rid of ANY relationships in media, books, art, public life, etc  Lock children in their bedrooms until they are 18 and finally expose them to other people in the outside world

It is a pretty basic idea....You can't make a gay kid straight and you can't make a straight kid gay

I agree that you can't make a gay kid straight and vice versa, I actually have no problem with people being who they actually are or want to be.  We have a nephew who came out as gay in HS, in one of the more "redneck" towns in southern Ohio.  That didn't change how we feel or interact with him, most of the family likely knew before he even realized.  More power to him, the fact that he respected his family enough to wait until he was 17 was something that we all applauded. (he's finishing his second year at UD, and doing fantastic)  The problem that I have is that under the law, children aren't supposed to be having sex in the first place.  And I get that kids will do what they want, etc.  The problem is that we as a society have made sexuality so acceptable in pretty much every aspect of our society and culture, that now children likely are feeling pressure to become sexual beings sooner than most are mentally and emotionally developed to fully understand the point and consequences of those actions.

(06-09-2023, 02:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is possible and I agree that the media will focus on the more extreme stories, for obvious reasons.  But I consume a lot of less mainstream media, both left and right, and I rarely encounter such a story regarding right wing protests.

I went on very left leaning sites and searched for college protest.  Logically one would assume that if a site is going to cover such a right wing protest it would be a far left site.  Here are the results.

(06-09-2023, 02:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:I tried your suggested Youtube experiment. I found that the "left" search and the "right" search often called up the same videos. My hesitancy about using Youtube to assess quantity is that there is no reason to suppose the number of videos breaking one way or the other corresponds to anything other than the intensity of organization of one side as opposed to the other. This is why it is important that states and the federal gov. compile data on political violence, against which we can check our impressions of the magnitude of a perceived threat.

One would think if right wing protests were occurring at anything close to the same rate that these sites would be covering them.  That there are so few stories, while certainly not definitive, certainly raise doubts as to their occurring equally, or close to equally.

Quote:If that were true the Log Cabin Republicans wouldn't exist


That's a rather blatantly partisan comment to make.  This whole conversation the terms democrat and republican hadn't even came up, until now..

Quote:Every one of us was born as a product of heterosexual sex.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that heterosexuality is the predominate sexuality worldwide, therefore "the norm".

Quote:Why do you think that children should be exposed to alternative lifestyle persons wearing costumes?  Seems more like you just want to support "normalizing the abnormal" behavior, and perhaps encourage new, unsuspecting children to think that perhaps they could be the queen behind the costume.  If true, that's really bizarre..

Quote:I agree that you can't make a gay kid straight and vice versa, I actually have no problem with people being who they actually are or want to be.  We have a nephew who came out as gay in HS, in one of the more "redneck" towns in southern Ohio.  That didn't change how we feel or interact with him, most of the family likely knew before he even realized.  More power to him, the fact that he respected his family enough to wait until he was 17 was something that we all applauded. (he's finishing his second year at UD, and doing fantastic)  The problem that I have is that under the law, children aren't supposed to be having sex in the first place.  And I get that kids will do what they want, etc.  The problem is that we as a society have made sexuality so acceptable in pretty much every aspect of our society and culture, that now children likely are feeling pressure to become sexual beings sooner than most are mentally and emotionally developed to fully understand the point and consequences of those actions.

(06-12-2023, 07:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, they all live under the same flag, and consider themselves to be a unified voting bloc, so there is that.

Quote:That's not what I said.  I said prey upon the minds of the easily influenced children in an attempt to normalize (gain acceptance) of abnormal behavior.

Quote:I was speaking specifically about events such as "drag queen story hour" and the like.  As for other types of entertainers, they are all as equally entitled to succeed or fail according to their merits, it is up to the parents to shield their children from forms of entertainment that does not represent the values which they intend to instill into them.

Quote:As for heterosexuals partaking in cosplay?  It's absolutely an expression of sexual fetish lifestyle, and should be kept to the realm of adults with mature, more fully developed minds.

Quote:When children become adults, they are free to make their own decisions about their personality and sexuality, the entire point is that children are easily influenced minds incapable of seeing the possible bad outcomes from making permanent, life altering decisions.  That's why they are considered minors under the law, and their parents charged with their protection from harm.

Quote:Thanks, but no thanks.  I've gathered enough information over the course of my 54 years from experiences and personal interactions and relationships with friends and family on various sides of the sexuality spectrum to have formed my own opinions.

(06-13-2023, 01:09 AM)Dill Wrote: I'm traveling this month, so it's not easy to respond to posts on time.

I thought the issue was which side has "demons," or "more demons," per C-Dawgs post.

Quote:So when I responded I wasn't thinking of right/left wing protests so much as the concept of "canceling." It's often represented as some kind of "left" phenomenon, but I think shaming someone on twitter is not as serious as denying someone jobs or firing someone--the kind of thing that often is not covered in MSM media. If one can distinguish between "radical leftists" of right wing media fame and actual leftists, I think the case can be made they are subject to greater harassment than a few very prominent right wing provocateurs. The way to determine that would not be to follow emotional or trendy news coverage, but by working through the bean counting of sites like Georgetown's Free Speech Tracker, which I linked above.

Quote:In any case, when assessing "demons," I'm not interested in lining up tit for tat "both sides do it."  At this conjuncture, what people ought to be recognizing is that one side's demons are the greater threat to civil peace and democracy--i.e., millions of Americans groomed to support a violence-inciting autocrat for president. The first ex president to face criminal charges--and the majority of one party separate his actions from their consequences to the degree they are alienated en masse from their own government. At the moment I do not see a more serious problem than that in our domestic politics. "Confronting extreme bullshit" on both sides just obscures this problem, delays recognition and so solution.

Quote:The bolded offers my reasons for why youtbue searches can be good for many things, but a count of videos on protests is not likely to correlate to some actual count of protests.  The angriest or most organized or most manipulated can account for quantity there. I think right wing media and their students are much more active on such venues. Not to mention Russians.

(06-13-2023, 01:09 AM)Dill Wrote: In any case, when assessing "demons," I'm not interested in lining up tit for tat "both sides do it."  At this conjuncture, what people ought to be recognizing is that one side's demons are the greater threat to civil peace and democracy--i.e., millions of Americans groomed to support a violence-inciting autocrat for president. The first ex president to face criminal charges--and the majority of one party separate his actions from their consequences to the degree they are alienated en masse from their own government. At the moment I do not see a more serious problem than that in our domestic politics. "Confronting extreme bullshit" on both sides just obscures this problem, delays recognition and so solution.