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+---- Thread: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' (/Thread-Trump-bans-transgender-people-from-serving-in-U-S-military-in-any-capacity)
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - GMDino - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 06:44 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Why are you quoting military.com when I already gave you the primary source, AR 40-501?
You just quoted what I've already told you several times.
There is a disconnect at work here. Several actually.
Can't admit to being wrong.
Hatred for anyone different.
Refusal to accept facts except from people who agree.
Might as well talk to the wall.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - StLucieBengal - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 07:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: There is a disconnect at work here. Several actually.
Can't admit to being wrong.
Hatred for anyone different.
Refusal to accept facts except from people who agree.
Might as well talk to the wall.
So because I do not feel we should be hiring suicidal people for the military. Which I have to subsidize with my tax money to train.
That's hatred? In my world this is common sense.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - GMDino - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 07:18 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So because I do not feel we should be hiring suicidal people for the military. Which I have to subsidize with my tax money to train.
That's hatred? In my world this is common sense.
No.
Ignoring that the entire premise is wrong is what is wrong.
Multiple times it was explained that the military attempts to weed out EVERYONE who is suicidal BEFORE they join.
But the "40% are suicidal" echo just keeps bouncing off the bubble walls.
Maybe the 40% is accurate...that does not mean that 40% of those who went through the pretesting are suicidal.
That is simply being ignored over and over due to a personal bias and, perhaps, hatred of transgender people in general.
In my world that is dumb.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - BmorePat87 - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 12:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You said 20 vets commit suicide a day.
No reason to have groups of people with high suicide rate going into a the military where you get increased suicide rate over the general population.
The only reason anyone wants a high suicide group in there is for political nonsense. If these were just regular people with a high suicide rate they would be rejected.
Unless transgendered are somehow immune to suicidal tendencies.... in which case there is no reason to pretend they are the opposite sex.
Like I've said, you making a mountain out of a mole hill for an issue that the generals don't seem to see a problem with. White males account for 70% of suicide, the response isn't to bar them from military service, it's to address the factors that cause them to want to commit suicide.
You said they weed out those with preexisting suicidal tendencies, so the only issue because addressing the specific causes for veteran suicides, something they should already be doing given that 20 vets kill themselves a day.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 07:00 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That suicidal people shouldn't be soldiers. Yes.
You could have just saved us all time and said yes Lucie I agree.
As I've told you over and over, individuals with a history of suicidal ideation are medically disqualified regardless of gender or sexual orientation. Someone who is transgender doesn't necessarily have a history of suicidal ideation. As I have told you over and over, it is judged on an individual basis and not your prejudice. As I have told you over and over, it's all in AR 40-501 which you obviously have no intention of reading.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - StLucieBengal - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 07:30 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Like I've said, you making a mountain out of a mole hill for an issue that the generals don't seem to see a problem with. White males account for 70% of suicide, the response isn't to bar them from military service, it's to address the factors that cause them to want to commit suicide.
You said they weed out those with preexisting suicidal tendencies, so the only issue because addressing the specific causes for veteran suicides, something they should already be doing given that 20 vets kill themselves a day.
The reason trump came out against them was because of the studies ran by the military. He was providing cover for those studies.
If this was not transgendered people and was just any other sitaution that causes rampant suicide at a 40% clip we would all be in agreement to not allow those people.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 11:48 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The reason trump came out against them was because of the studies ran by the military. He was providing cover for those studies.
What studies?
Quote:If this was not transgendered people and was just any other sitaution that causes rampant suicide at a 40% clip we would all be in agreement to not allow those people.
Um, if they committed suicide they couldn't have taken the survey, genius. If they completed the survey then they were too alive to have committed suicide.
The vast majority of service members who successfully commit suicide are heterosexual and are not transgender, yet "we" (still laughing at that) let heterosexuals in because they qualify IAW AR 40-501.
That really is all there is to this issue. People far more knowledgeable and experienced than you have determined the medical disqualifications. Your concerns are not disqualifying. Period. It's written down in black and white in AR 40-501.
So no matter how many times you mention that 40% statistic it doesn't matter according to the AR unless it applies to the individual. Which means the 40% who had attempted suicide would be disqualified while the other 60% wouldn't be disqualified for something the other 40% did in their past. I didn't think it was that difficult to understand.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 04:53 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Being a nurse prac. in the military it was probably easy for you to not worry about transgenders and your life wasn't on the line if one had a bad day and got depressed. I know plenty of vets and haven't met one who wanted to serve with transgenders. And they didn't want to know if any of them were gay.
(08-13-2017, 06:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yup. He comes in prancing around like a fairy then he goes home. Fortunately he is a professional and honestly I don't even know if he fairy's around.... I know some of his boyfriends have been so maybe he is supposed to be the man idk.
I'm suppose to believe you two are professional enough to work together in the civilian sector, but if both of you were dressed in a military uniform you wouldn't be able to keep your hands off his ass?
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - RICHMONDBENGAL_07 - 08-14-2017
I was going to post a reply for you lucie, a rebuttal just for you! But so many others have done such a fine job that I decided to just rep them instead. Because it appears no matter how much hard evidence or logical opinion is presented to you...you will not accept it. That's cool man, I'm not mad, just sad...for you. Oh well I'm not gonna
over it.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - Synric - 08-14-2017
(07-27-2017, 04:43 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Gender Dysphoria is no longer considered a mental illness per the most recent version of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5, published 2013) published by the American Psychiatric Association. It states specifically:
This is a change from previous versions where it was considered a disorder. But it is no longer. The same thing happened to various other conditions such as homosexuality (1974) and pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder (1987).
When I was young, we used to be taught that things like homosexuality and gender dysphoria were mental illnesses. Now that I am older, I can look back and see that a lot of harm was done to people with these conditions by this labeling.
I understand where they are getting at that the flaw is more in the prejudice than the the actual disorder but I also think that putting your body through extensive surgery to radically change it shows something is a little off. Less like Homosexuality and more like people thay go through extensive pastic surgery for BDD.
I don't think Transgender should be banned, but I do believe they should have to get a medical waiver to join like I had to for my ADD ( in 2003 that wasn't easy lol).
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - ballsofsteel - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 11:48 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The reason trump came out against them was because of the studies ran by the military. He was providing cover for those studies.
If this was not transgendered people and was just any other sitaution that causes rampant suicide at a 40% clip we would all be in agreement to not allow those people.
There is only one reason "Trump came out against them". His advisors told him it would be a good thing to do to keep his right wing Evangelical base rooting for him. Do you honestly think Trump came up with this "nothingburger" on his own? I don't. He has the attention span of a six year old.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - BmorePat87 - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 11:48 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The reason trump came out against them was because of the studies ran by the military. He was providing cover for those studies.
If this was not transgendered people and was just any other sitaution that causes rampant suicide at a 40% clip we would all be in agreement to not allow those people.
What studies?
Those suicide numbers are for youths (pre transition). We would not all be in agreement because some of us don't use statistics out of context to make non existent points. It's the reason why I am not calling for a ban on all white males in the military despite their disproportionately high suicide rates.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - StLucieBengal - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 12:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: What studies?
Those suicide numbers are for youths (pre transition). We would not all be in agreement because some of us don't use statistics out of context to make non existent points. It's the reason why I am not calling for a ban on all white males in the military despite their disproportionately high suicide rates.
Ah the old bash the study when it doesn't fit your issue. Please we all know what you are about on this topic. You have a blind spot.
You can't even muster the courage to say we shouldn't have people with high suicide rates in the military.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - BmorePat87 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 02:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah the old bash the study when it doesn't fit your issue.
I asked "what study?"... I'm curious
Quote:Please we all know what you are about on this topic. You have a blind spot.
Blind Spot Pat thinking we shouldn't refer to trans people by using slurs. So crazy that I want to treat them like humans.
Quote:You can't even muster the courage to say we shouldn't have people with high suicide rates in the military.
I don't think it's right to exclude white men. Sorry.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - StLucieBengal - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 02:45 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I asked "what study?"... I'm curious
Blind Spot Pat thinking we shouldn't refer to trans people by using slurs. So crazy that I want to treat them like humans.
I don't think it's right to exclude white men. Sorry.
![[Image: g0PeSMF.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/g0PeSMF.jpg)
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - BmorePat87 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 03:09 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:
So no study then, you're just going to call me names and then post a meme?
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - GMDino - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 03:34 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So no study then, you're just going to call me names and then post a meme?
Is this virtue thing the latest catch phrase like SJW?
It's so hard keeping up with the newest name calling/excuse making rhetoric from the right!
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 02:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah the old bash the study when it doesn't fit your issue. Please we all know what you are about on this topic. You have a blind spot.
You can't even muster the courage to say we shouldn't have people with high suicide rates in the military.
Asking for the study isn't bashing the study. You can't agree or disagree with a study until you read the study. I asked to see the study because you have a bad habit of making stuff up (claiming injuries are up in the NFL because of reduced practice time) or misunderstanding the studies or intentionally misrepresenting the information. Just like you are doing now. Personally, I don't believe these studies even exist until I see them. But, that's how evidence works. If you're going to claim something as evidence you need to share it with other others. Actively avoiding releasing your evidence makes me doubt its existence even more.
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 02:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah the old bash the study when it doesn't fit your issue. Please we all know what you are about on this topic. You have a blind spot.
You can't even muster the courage to say we shouldn't have people with high suicide rates in the military.
The 40% who have a history of attempted suicide in the study you cited would be medically disqualified IAW AR 40-501. While the other 60% wouldn't be disqualified based upon the medical history of other's (which is only common sense.)
RE: Trump bans transgender people from serving in U.S. military 'in any capacity' - Belsnickel - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 07:06 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Asking for the study isn't bashing the study. You can't agree or disagree with a study until you read the study. I asked to see the study because you have a bad habit of making stuff up (claiming injuries are up in the NFL because of reduced practice time) or misunderstanding the studies or intentionally misrepresenting the information. Just like you are doing now. Personally, I don't believe these studies even exist until I see them. But, that's how evidence works. If you're going to claim something as evidence you need to share it with other others. Actively avoiding releasing your evidence makes me doubt its existence even more.
I'm with you. His first claim of this study was post 106, I asked where it was on 110. Here we are, 70 posts and 3 days later, and no study has been provided, or even referenced by name.