+- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums)
+--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0)
+---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive)
+---- Thread: Good Night Irene (/Thread-Good-Night-Irene--16635)
RE: Good Night Irene - BmorePat87 - 08-23-2018
(08-22-2018, 09:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's all about perception. For me, the flag and my service were almost synonymous. I took my Oath of Enlistment in front of it. It was a patch on my Uniform. It's draped over every member who gave his/her life.
You and others are free to feel differently (that's the glory of our country), but reality is that the flag (among many things) also serves as a symbol of our military. Without that deep sense of patriotism and pride in what the Flag represents, we couldn't maintain a voluntary force.
And that's a personal association and does not change the motives of another person.
RE: Good Night Irene - Shake n Blake - 08-23-2018
(08-23-2018, 12:52 AM)Benton Wrote: Maybe that's the disconnect? You view the flag as something relevant to service; others don't.
Each branch of the military has a flag. It represents the service of those in that branch. The US flag, on the other hand, represents the rest of us.
I appreciate those who serve, but this represents part of the disconnect. If Americans in general don't have a flag — as it's a symbol of the military — then where are the ties that bind? Where are the 'we're all in this together' parts, as opposed to the 'this is the part of the country you aren't part of' parts?
It's not JUST a symbol of the military though. The military is only part of what it represents. It's also a symbol of all we should be proud of (as it is for each nation with a flag). For us, it represents unity and freedom to most. The ties that bind us are supposed to be love for our country, each other, and the American way of life.
Unfortunately, it seems we're in a time where people feel the need to question even that. You can freely raise questions about the police, but don't do so while questioning everything else. When you choose the Flag/Anthem as your platform, that will be the perception. Whether that's your motivation or not.
We live in a time where the left seems to push many anti-American sentiments. Kids walk around sarcastically saying "Murica" as if this is a bad place to live. So when the players chose this form of protest, of course it further irks us conservatives. We're sick of the anti-America sentiment that's gained steam lately.
I do have my disagreements with the premise of their cause, but that's not what pisses me off. It's the act itself, and the further feeding of the current anti-American sentiment.
(08-23-2018, 04:45 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: And that's a personal association and does not change the motives of another person.
It's personal to many millions. Those on the other side also have a "personal" feeling about their protest not being disrespectful.
Point being that just saying that your protest means no disrespect, doesn't mean those who are offended have to agree.
As bfine said, Dan Snyder intends no disrespect with the Redskins name. Does the other side have to *not* be offended now?
RE: Good Night Irene - Nately120 - 08-23-2018
(08-23-2018, 05:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's not JUST a symbol of the military though. The military is only part of what it represents. It's also a symbol of all we should be proud of (as it is for each nation with a flag). For us, it represents unity and freedom to most. The ties that bind us are supposed to be love for our country, each other, and the American way of life.
I'm a known cynic, but I think way too much of the American flag as a symbol has become associated with the republican party and neo-conservatism, rather than freedom or the American way of life, etc. As I've pointed out before, it's just good marketing on the part of the right-wing. They've draped themselves in the flag to the point where it may as well be the symbol of the republican party. Well, I may be going overboard with that, but I'd wager I'm onto something there.
I know I've personally seen enough flag waving by people who are promoting the limitation of freedom and the division of this country to have to stop and tell myself "It's not the flag's fault."
RE: Good Night Irene - fredtoast - 08-23-2018
(08-23-2018, 05:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We live in a time where the left seems to push many anti-American sentiments. . . So when the players chose this form of protest, of course it further irks us conservatives. We're sick of the anti-America sentiment that's gained steam lately.
The entire campaign mantra of the right's candidate was that America is all messed up.
So it seems the conservatives are the ones pushing the anti-American sentiments. But at the same time they are the ones acting like snowflakes when someone other than themselves claim there is a problem in America.
RE: Good Night Irene - Nately120 - 08-23-2018
I'm at the fair, or a fair and I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said "If you don't like Trump then you probably won't like this " and there was a picture of the American flag. I knew id see something like that here. Classic!
Wait, it actually said you probably won't like me and then had a picture of the flag.
RE: Good Night Irene - BmorePat87 - 08-24-2018
(08-23-2018, 05:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's personal to many millions. Those on the other side also have a "personal" feeling about their protest not being disrespectful.
Point being that just saying that your protest means no disrespect, doesn't mean those who are offended have to agree.
As bfine said, Dan Snyder intends no disrespect with the Redskins name. Does the other side have to *not* be offended now?
Being offended by something does not mean the thing you were offended by is disrespectful.
RE: Good Night Irene - Benton - 08-24-2018
(08-23-2018, 05:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's not JUST a symbol of the military though. The military is only part of what it represents. It's also a symbol of all we should be proud of (as it is for each nation with a flag). For us, it represents unity and freedom to most. The ties that bind us are supposed to be love for our country, each other, and the American way of life.
Unfortunately, it seems we're in a time where people feel the need to question even that. You can freely raise questions about the police, but don't do so while questioning everything else. When you choose the Flag/Anthem as your platform, that will be the perception. Whether that's your motivation or not.
We live in a time where the left seems to push many anti-American sentiments. Kids walk around sarcastically saying "Murica" as if this is a bad place to live. So when the players chose this form of protest, of course it further irks us conservatives. We're sick of the anti-America sentiment that's gained steam lately.
I do have my disagreements with the premise of their cause, but that's not what pisses me off. It's the act itself, and the further feeding of the current anti-American sentiment.
To the bold, that's what the protest was supposed to point out. That for some people, America is a bad place to live.
Overall, I think the mantra of 'salute the flag or you don't support the troops' pushes people away more than the flag provides a tie that binds. Which is the course of things these days. You're either on "our team" or "their team" and there's no common ground anymore.
RE: Good Night Irene - Nately120 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 10:25 AM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, that's what the protest was supposed to point out. That for some people, America is a bad place to live.
Overall, I think the mantra of 'salute the flag or you don't support the troops' pushes people away more than the flag provides a tie that binds. Which is the course of things these days. You're either on "our team" or "their team" and there's no common ground anymore.
The issue is that the right-wing has done a great job of commandeering the symbol of the flag as being synonymous with their party. There seems to be a pervasive notion that the right is pro-America and the left is anti-America. That's just good marketing on the part of republicans, but it might make you pine for the days when both parties were seen as being pro-America in their own ways. I think of that Sean Hanity method of marketing where you are conservative, have the flag behind you, and mention how America needs saved from liberalism. Maybe the left-wing does that too, I don't really keep up with left/right political books unless I see them at junk stores.
Anyways, the American flag can be seen as rather superficial in this case, as people can wear it and wave it in a "my side vs your side" manner more relatable to a person's favorite sports team than country.
tl;dr - Anyone who disagrees with me hates America!
RE: Good Night Irene - bfine32 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 09:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Being offended by something does not mean the thing you were offended by is disrespectful.
Is the Washington DC NFL team's name disrespectful?
RE: Good Night Irene - bfine32 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 10:25 AM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, that's what the protest was supposed to point out. That for some people, America is a bad place to live.
Overall, I think the mantra of 'salute the flag or you don't support the troops' pushes people away more than the flag provides a tie that binds. Which is the course of things these days. You're either on "our team" or "their team" and there's no common ground anymore.
This knife cuts both ways; it's just folks expect those that have an opinion opposite of theirs to be the one that is "understanding".
RE: Good Night Irene - Nately120 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Is the Washington DC NFL team's name disrespectful?
Are you proposing that people should find both the anthem protests and the DC squad's name to be offensive, or neither to be offensive?
RE: Good Night Irene - fredtoast - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This knife cuts both ways; it's just folks expect those that have an opinion opposite of theirs to be the one that is "understanding".
The problem here is not each party supporting their own position. The problem here is that the right is trying to support two contradictory positions at the same time. They drool when Trump talks about all the problems the United States has, then they claim it is "disrespectful" for black football players to claim the United States has any problems.
It would be like people who complain about the DC football team mascot saying it is okay to use the N-word.
RE: Good Night Irene - GMDino - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Is the Washington DC NFL team's name disrespectful?
Yes. It uses a racial slur that should have been put to bed long ago.
What that has to do with players kneeling though.....?
RE: Good Night Irene - bfine32 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem here is not each party supporting their own position. The problem here is that the right is trying to support two contradictory positions at the same time. They drool when Trump talks about all the problems the United States has, then they claim it is "disrespectful" for black football players to claim the United States has any problems.
It would be like people who complain about the DC football team mascot saying it is okay to use the N-word.
Oh, I had no doubt you felt the problem lied with Trump supporters.
Do you find the Washington name to be disrespectful?
RE: Good Night Irene - Nately120 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem here is not each party supporting their own position. The problem here is that the right is trying to support two contradictory positions at the same time. They drool when Trump talks about all the problems the United States has, then they claim it is "disrespectful" for black football players to claim the United States has any problems.
It would be like people who complain about the DC football team mascot saying it is okay to use the N-word.
I remember this political cartoon which illustrates your point:
![[Image: 57c7589a1700001a1fc76d55.gif?cache=ohgbo..._noupscale]](https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/57c7589a1700001a1fc76d55.gif?cache=ohgbobx3ej&ops=scalefit_720_noupscale)
I reminds me of when I was dating a hardcore republican when Obama got elected and her family had Fox News on and I'd half watch it and I honestly asked if we're really going to sit around and listen to people talk about how stupid and crappy America is for the next 4-8 years.
RE: Good Night Irene - bfine32 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes. It uses a racial slur that should have been put to bed long ago.
What that has to do with players kneeling though.....?
Because the intent is not to be disrespectful or offensive and not everyone is offended by it.
RE: Good Night Irene - bfine32 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you proposing that people should find both the anthem protests and the DC squad's name to be offensive, or neither to be offensive?
I am proposing no intent does not simply make something not offensive/disrespectful
RE: Good Night Irene - fredtoast - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I am proposing no intent does not simply make something not offensive/disrespectful
Then you are agreeing that the DC mascot is disrespectful.
RE: Good Night Irene - Nately120 - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I am proposing no intent does not simply make something not offensive/disrespectful
Then that comes down to how much people are "making it about themselves." Some may find "redskin" being offensive to be more direct slight to native Americans than kneeling during the anthem is to veterans, specifically.
Personally, I can see why veterans would be offended by the protests, but I find myself more intrigued how people who aren't veterans going all "white knight" on the situation in order to gain their own support or fuel their own egos or disparage people who may be of an ethnic or economic demographic that irks them.
It's all too politically perfect to gain legitimacy in my mind. I guess I just don't see something like a Green Party candidate convincing people to care about the environment because our troops fought and died and are fighting and dying for this country and to let people destroy it so they can line their greedy pockets is like spitting on their graves, etc. It's just all too neatly right wing vs America-hating liberals and their overpaid minority pals.
Just my take. In the end, I say people can believe what they want as long as they protest with their wallet and not governmental regulations and rules.
EDIT: I will say that white knighting for those offended by the DC team name fits the liberal agenda of pointing out how rich white (well, Dan Snyder is Jewish, so errrr) guys and their "proud to be un PC" white bread fans love to insult minorities.
RE: Good Night Irene - Benton - 08-24-2018
(08-24-2018, 12:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This knife cuts both ways; it's just folks expect those that have an opinion opposite of theirs to be the one that is "understanding".
Of course it swings both ways. In this case, the nutshell comes off as:
"Hey, could you be more understanding that a disproportionate amount of unarmed young black guys are getting shot by police?"
"Hey, could you understand that we don't want you to disrespect the government that is responsible for the people shooting a disproportionate amount of unarmed young black guys?"
One side needs to say "hey, let's address the issue and not the messenger."