(05-09-2016, 11:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Page 8 and we're still discussing how drunk and how slutty she can be dressed.

Still not discussing changing male behavior.

(05-09-2016, 11:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  We live in a society where oo many men (mostly young men) absolutely think it is okay to rape a passed out female.

Classic case fro Vanderbilt just 2 years ago.  a bunch of football players are running a train on some girl and instead of trying to keep it a secret they actually send photos to their friends.

People can preach all they want about how "men already know it is wrong to rape", but they are just ignoring reality.  Cases like the Vanderbilt rape prove they are wrong.  Rapist don't send pictures to their friends unless there is something in our society that makes them believe it is cool.

(05-09-2016, 11:06 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: It's not male behavior that needs changing. It's criminals behavior that needs changing.

(05-09-2016, 11:30 AM)Benton Wrote: Valid point.

On the other hand, this is one of the instances where it's overwhelmingly perpetrated by one group (men). It's around 1 in 4 women who get raped, and around 1 in 25 men (with some of those being raped by men and some falling under statutory rape, ie consensual sex with an above age female). And the "rape culture" concern is over the defense of that disproportionate number often being... 'well, it's her fault.'  It's 'her fault' she had too much to drink,' it's 'her fault she was wearing a short skirt,' etc.

So, yeah, it's a criminal behavior issue, but given the disparity in the numbers, there's something else. And the idea behind pointing to the rape culture is that the "something else" is a cultural problem.

(05-09-2016, 11:40 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Actually in 2014 20.1 out of 1000 (.02%) of the population total population was raped / sexually assaulted. The 1 in 4 women who get raped statistic is totally wrong.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv14.pdf
(top of page 2)

(05-09-2016, 11:55 AM)Benton Wrote: Take it up with the CDC.

(05-09-2016, 11:59 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: The study the CDC did didn't ask if they were raped. They gave them a list of things, and if they said yes to any one of them then they would mark they have been raped. One of which asked if you had sex while intoxicated. Plus the study was done over the phone, and to only two colleges. It was a highly scrutinized study to say the least.

(05-09-2016, 11:06 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: It's not male behavior that needs changing. It's criminals behavior that needs changing.

(05-09-2016, 12:11 PM)Benton Wrote: Understandable.

On the other hand, you aren't going to get accurate rape statistics. Too many go unreported. My wife was a SANE nurse for several years. Even in a small town, she was called to handle about one a month, but only about once a year did a case go to trial. Most often, the victim didn't want to press charges, she was just going to the hospital to get checked out for STDs/pregnancy. Rape is too personal a crime and too often the victims feel ashamed for there to be any kind of accurate reporting of the numbers.

(05-09-2016, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: ME:  "In the United States a woman gets raped every two minutes."

Lucie:  "That's horrible, but if I was that woman I would move someplace safer."

(05-09-2016, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: ME:  "In the United States a woman gets raped every two minutes."

Lucie:  "That's horrible, but if I was that woman I would move someplace safer."

(05-09-2016, 12:14 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Doesn't have hospital have to report it to the police if someone comes in and says they have been raped?

Edit: Even if you triple the amounts of rapes / sexual assaults and attribute them all to women it would be .006% of the woman population.

(05-09-2016, 12:46 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first, I believe so, but I can't so say in every state. And that's usually as far as it goes.

Typically, it would be something like a person would come in, say they were sexually assaulted and they needed a test for STDs or a pregnancy test, or they were scared about their parts because of some kind of trauma. The nurse/doctor calls the SANE nurse, who calls the cops and orders a rape kit. And then usually the person says they don't want to press charges or that it was a mistake, or whatever. The cops don't have to have the victim's cooperation, but as a court reporter, I saw several cases over the years that seemed pretty solid get dropped because the victim refused to testify. One guy beat a woman half to death and penetrated her repeatedly with a flashlight. The cops had the guy in bloody clothes, the flashlight, and a witness to part of it. Case got dropped because the week before trial the victim refused to testify (the guy doing the assaulting had a kid with her and she was afraid if she testified and he didn't go to jail, she'd lose custody). EDIT: I forgot, he also admitted to it when they first arrested him, even though he sobered up later and said he didn't admit anything.

To the second, my stories are purely anecdotal and I wouldn't try to guess at how they relate nationally. According to CDC numbers, Kentucky is higher in sexual assaults than the national average.

(05-09-2016, 12:52 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Hmmm I don't think the courts can drop the case if there is that much evidence. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure even if the victim doesn't want to testify any longer, but the police have enough evidence the crime did happen they can still continue on with the case. Maybe Fred can enlighten me if that's true or not.

(05-09-2016, 12:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Na.   I would just carry a gun and shoot the rapist.  After all we can do that in Florida  

(05-09-2016, 01:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think something that seems to be missing from the conversation as well is the separation of what the legal system says is rape or what constitutes consent. One effect of a "rape culture," or any engrained cultural perceptions, is that they are reflected in the law. The idea that, legally, drunken consent is still consent, is a result of that being a cultural norm. Should it be that way? That's something we may see change in the laws in the next few years, and we have seen it start to change as attitudes shift. We see in the law that someone is mentally incapacitated by being intoxicated, but in all but a couple of states they have to have ingested the intoxicating substance unwittingly. So the precedent is there that being intoxicated means you cannot give consent, but they haven't taken the next step which is to say that consenting to intoxication is not consenting to sex.

But it's definitely something to keep in mind because as Fred has pointed out, and has been mentioned before, it is very hard to get a rape conviction if there is no physical evidence, and many rapes go unreported. Just because there wasn't a conviction or it didn't violate the law as it is currently written does not mean that rape, non-consensual sex, did not occur. Using the crutch that legally it isn't rape so you're all good is just more of the same cultural attitudes that lead people to say we have a rape culture in this country.