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Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' (/Thread-Despite-Clinton-impeachment-vote-Gingrich-says-President-cannot-obstruct-justice) Pages:
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Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - GMDino - 06-20-2017 http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/politics/gingrich-defends-trump-again/index.html Quote:Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said Friday that it's impossible for President Donald Trump to obstruct justice because of the fact that he's president. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 The President can obstruct justice, but he can't simply by exercising his Constitutional powers. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - GMDino - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 11:24 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The President can obstruct justice, but he can't simply by exercising his Constitutional powers. Newt said he can't. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 11:29 AM)GMDino Wrote: Newt said he can't. With his example of firing the FBI director I'd assume he meant like I said, but maybe not. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Belsnickel - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 11:24 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The President can obstruct justice, but he can't simply by exercising his Constitutional powers. He can if there was corrupt intent. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - tigerseye - 06-20-2017 Comey's handling of the Clinton e-mail investigation, "Matter" instead of "investigation", leaking info to the press, etc. Comey has proven many times over he shouldn't be FBI Director. (He is an attention *****.) Firing Comey was the right thing to do. They have beat the Trump colluded with the Russians drum for 10 months and found nothing which they now all admit. Now they will try the Obstruction angle. Then finance. Then whatever. It's all a witch hunt to impeach or obstruct Trump from accomplishing goals so they can later say see he didn't accomplish what he said he would. None of this is good for our country, but they don't care. Its not about our country to them. It is all about themselves. They are the Swamp. and the Witch Hunt will continue and the Main Stream Propaganda Outlets will continue to shovel Bullsh@#. Carry on. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 11:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: He can if there was corrupt intent. A series of legal acts can't constitute one illegal act. Tampering with evidence and lying are obstruction of justice. Using the powers granted to you are not. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Belsnickel - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 12:46 PM)michaelsean Wrote: A series of legal acts can't constitute one illegal act. Tampering with evidence and lying are obstruction of justice. Using the powers granted to you are not. It can if they are used with corrupt intent. https://s3.amazonaws.com/storage.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/19152313/DOJ-Obstruction-of-Justice-5-12-171.pdf This letter requests an investigation into obstruction. It is written by Noah Bookbinder, a man with a hefty legal resume, and the organization also has at least two former White House lawyers (one from each party) in its leadership. If they are saying that Trump could potentially be guilty of obstruction by using the power constitutionally granted to him if it was done with corrupt intent, I will take their word for it over yours. All tea, no shade. ![]() RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 12:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It can if they are used with corrupt intent. They are hoping to convince people of that. Has it ever happened before to a President? When Ford pardoned Nixon and stopped the investigation cold, was that obstruction? Clinton and Mark Rich? Bush and Weinberger? Any time a President has pardoned someone under investigation or indictment, how is it not the same thing? RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 10:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/politics/gingrich-defends-trump-again/index.html The cognitive dissonance in this article actually causes me pain. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not obstruction. So Gingrich's opinion, right or wrong, is not hypocritical. I'm beginning to get why CNN is perceived by so many as a purveyor of garbage. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 There was an obstruction charge connected to the lying under oath and witness tampering, but not for performing legal acts. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - hollodero - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 01:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The cognitive dissonance in this article actually causes me pain. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not obstruction. So Gingrich's opinion, right or wrong, is not hypocritical. I'm beginning to get why CNN is perceived by so many as a purveyor of garbage. Well... Article III of the Clinton impeachment says "William Jefferson Clinton [...] has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, and has to that end engaged personally, and through his subordinates and agents, in a course of conduct or scheme designed to delay, impede, cover up, and conceal the existence of evidence and testimony related to a Federal civil rights action brought against him" So well, obstruction was a part of what Gingrich voted for. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 01:40 PM)michaelsean Wrote: There was an obstruction charge connected to the lying under oath and witness tampering, but not for performing legal acts. (06-20-2017, 01:42 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well... Article III of the Clinton impeachment says "William Jefferson Clinton [...] has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, and has to that end engaged personally, and through his subordinates and agents, in a course of conduct or scheme designed to delay, impede, cover up, and conceal the existence of evidence and testimony related to a Federal civil rights action brought against him" Fair enough, I should have been clearer. Regardless, my less than precise language does not change my point at all. When anyone gets back to me with solid evidence that Trump obstructed justice then the article will start to have a point. Until that happens this is, as I said, a garbage comparison. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - hollodero - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 02:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: When anyone gets back to me with solid evidence that Trump obstructed justice then the article will start to have a point. Until that happens this is, as I said, a garbage comparison. But that was not the point the article was making. It's not about the actual obstruction or if it indeed happened or not. It's about Gingrich saying a president in general can't be charged with obstruction of justice, by the nature of his position alone he can not "obstruct". And if that truely is his view on that subject, it isn't quite a consistent one... since president Clinton could in his eyes very well obstruct justice. I feel that's a fair point to make. Not an overly important one, but also not a "garbage" one. What might be most interesting is not Gingrich's alleged hypocrisy, but if he's actually right. Is it impossible for a president to obstruct justice? In the sense that it's also impossible he's charged with sharing classified information? RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 02:44 PM)hollodero Wrote: But that was not the point the article was making. It's not about the actual obstruction or if it indeed happened or not. It's about Gingrich saying a president in general can't be charged with obstruction of justice, by the nature of his position alone he can not "obstruct". And if that truely is his view on that subject, it isn't quite a consistent one... since president Clinton could in his eyes very well obstruct justice. I feel that's a fair point to make. Not an overly important one, but also not a "garbage" one. You're actually making the article's, attempted, point better than the article itself. However, we're getting into the parsing hairs area of the law. Clinton lied under oath, this isn't in dispute, by anyone. That, in itself could be, and was, an impeachable offense. Don't we hear all the time from "the left" how they can't wait for Trump to testify because he'll lie under oath? Not being an expert on constitutional law I can't be definitive, but I'm sure there are multiple ways a POTUS can be impeached for lying under oath, not just for obstruction. Regardless, I don't see anyone, including Gingrich, making an argument that it's ok for the POTUS to lie under oath. Quote:What might be most interesting is not Gingrich's alleged hypocrisy, but if he's actually right. Is it impossible for a president to obstruct justice? In the sense that it's also impossible he's charged with sharing classified information? He's arguing nuances and your second point is a good one. In short, I'd say absolutely yes, the POTUS can obstruct justice as he's not an autocrat and is beholden to the US Constitution. Whether, in the way Trump is alleged to have obstructed, it is possible for the POTUS to obstruct is another argument. Not to change the subject, at all, but it's similar to the difficulty of convicting an LEO for murder while on duty. Part of the LEO's job description is the potential use of deadly force. Thus, by dint of their profession the burden of proof that they acted in a criminal manner, especially a willful one, when they used deadly force is much more difficult than it would be for a person who does not have that legal power. I think this is why you have well known legal experts on completely polar opposite sides of this issue. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Belsnickel - 06-20-2017 I am currently on my iPad, so I am not quoting the parts I want to. Regarding being charged with obstruction, that has yet to be determined if the POTUS can be. It will have to be answered by the SCOTUS if POTUS can Ben criminally charged. Congress can do it through impeachment for obstruction, but the question hasn't been answered regarding prosecution. It was almost taken up for Nixon, but because of his resignation it was never an answered question. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - Belsnickel - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 01:16 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They are hoping to convince people of that. Has it ever happened before to a President? When Ford pardoned Nixon and stopped the investigation cold, was that obstruction? Clinton and Mark Rich? Bush and Weinberger? Any time a President has pardoned someone under investigation or indictment, how is it not the same thing? Corrupt intent has to be proven, that is a difficult thing. In this situation it could be different since Trump can't keep his mouth shut and stay off of Twitter. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - GMDino - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 03:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Corrupt intent has to be proven, that is a difficult thing. In this situation it could be different since Trump can't keep his mouth shut and stay off of Twitter. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 02:44 PM)hollodero Wrote: But that was not the point the article was making. It's not about the actual obstruction or if it indeed happened or not. It's about Gingrich saying a president in general can't be charged with obstruction of justice, by the nature of his position alone he can not "obstruct". And if that truely is his view on that subject, it isn't quite a consistent one... since president Clinton could in his eyes very well obstruct justice. I feel that's a fair point to make. Not an overly important one, but also not a "garbage" one. It is fairly agreed on that a President can't (won't) be charged criminally with obstruction while in office. Once he leaves he can be which is why Ford pardoned Nixon. Yes he can obstruct justice by doing illegal things during an investigation. Lying. Withholding evidence. Suborning (bestechung...no way you know that one) perjury etc. RE: Despite Clinton impeachment vote, Gingrich says President 'cannot obstruct justice' - michaelsean - 06-20-2017 (06-20-2017, 03:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Corrupt intent has to be proven, that is a difficult thing. In this situation it could be different since Trump can't keep his mouth shut and stay off of Twitter. Well the first thing I am going to do as a defense attorney is cite all the investigations stopped through pardons and point out that there was never once an attempt at prosecution for the President halting an investigation through the powers granted to him. Of course first you have to prove he even attempted to halt the investigation. Do the testimonies of Coats and Rogers count? We don't have him ever saying that, but we do have him saying if any of his people broke the law, it's good to know. Hmmm...I wonder if that's obstruction too. I wonder if Comey felt pressured to investigate his aids after he said that. |