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Concentration Camps in Italy? - BFritz21 - 12-21-2017
Just wondering why we never hear much about Jews being murdered in Italy since they were an Axis power.
I realize that Mussolini killed a lot of other people and that there weren’t many Jews in Italy, but he did send about 10 to 15,000 to Auschwitz and had a few concentration camps in Italy (I think), so do we just not hear about it because it wasn’t 6 million like Hitler?
Is Mussolini’s name just saved from being an unspeakable word like Hitler because he was committing his crimes at the same time and they were just overlooked because they weren’t on the same level in terms of numbers?
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - hollodero - 12-21-2017
(12-21-2017, 03:16 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Just wondering why we never hear much about Jews being murdered in Italy since they were an Axis power.
I realize that Mussolini killed a lot of other people and that there weren’t many Jews in Italy, but he did send about 10 to 15,000 to Auschwitz and had a few concentration camps in Italy (I think), so do we just not hear about it because it wasn’t 6 million like Hitler?
Is Mussolini’s name just saved from being an unspeakable word like Hitler because he was committing his crimes at the same time and they were just overlooked because they weren’t on the same level in terms of numbers?
Yes that's the reason. My own country's reputation lives off of that too. That being said, it's not like Mussolini's reputation is that good. He just became more of a footnote, like Petain and then some.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - BFritz21 - 12-21-2017
(12-21-2017, 09:42 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yes that's the reason. My own country's reputation lives off of that too. That being said, it's not like Mussolini's reputation is that good. He just became more of a footnote, like Petain and then some.
I know Petain committed some crimes, but I didn't think it was anywhere near as big as Mussolini in Italy, even after he joined the Germans (I think that's correct).
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - hollodero - 12-21-2017
(12-21-2017, 09:56 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I know Petain committed some crimes, but I didn't think it was anywhere near as big as Mussolini in Italy, even after he joined the Germans (I think that's correct).
More or less correct. I don't know if it's the same scale, but the Vichy regime also deported Jews. The concept of doing a headcount to determine the evilness is tricky - as you yourself said when mentioning that Mussolini gets a somewhat lighter treatment. Sure the situation was different, as France was defeated and had little wiggle room while Italy joined the Nazi cause willingly, but still. Many crimes are historically overshadowed by Hitler's and Nazi Germany's crimes and hence fly a bit under the historical radar.
I talk as a citizen of the "first victim" country, that was full of collaborateurs committing lots of atrocities - but for a long time didn't feel the need to deal with that dark times and evil deeds.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Belsnickel - 12-21-2017
When talking about the crimes against the Jewish people, it's hard to compare to Hitler. But we have to remember that anti-semitism in Europe was everywhere. It wasn't reserved just for the Axis powers, either, just about every country wasn't a fan of their Jewish population. So when those that were a part of the Axis powers, or conquered by them, took to the same methods as the Germans it shouldn't be at all surprising. But the Germans will always have the edge because of the menagerie of people that used their genius to kill as many people as possible. There were evil bastards in many of these countries, but the German command structure had some diabolical masterminds.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Dill - 12-26-2017
(12-21-2017, 03:16 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Just wondering why we never hear much about Jews being murdered in Italy since they were an Axis power.
I realize that Mussolini killed a lot of other people and that there weren’t many Jews in Italy, but he did send about 10 to 15,000 to Auschwitz and had a few concentration camps in Italy (I think), so do we just not hear about it because it wasn’t 6 million like Hitler?
Is Mussolini’s name just saved from being an unspeakable word like Hitler because he was committing his crimes at the same time and they were just overlooked because they weren’t on the same level in terms of numbers?
I can answer that question with a bit of historical background, BFritz.
1. Anti-semitism was/is unevenly distributed in Europe. In occupied Denmark, for example, Danes actively worked to protect Jews. When Nazis ordered Jews wear the yellow armband with a Star of David, millions of Danes, from the King down, donned them to show solidarity. In Eastern Europe, antisemitism was worse than in Germany. When the Nazis invaded Lithuania, the civilian population helped Nazis hunt down their "real enemy," the Jews. Civilians dragged Jewish families from their homes, robbed the homes, raped the women, and turned them all over to the SS. Italy was closer to Denmark on this spectrum, with the 3rd highest rate of survival for Jews in Europe.
2. Racism came late to Italian Fascism. In 1932, Mussolini (with Giovanni Gentile) wrote up comprehensive manifesto of Fascism which mentions race not at all. By the mid 30s, some Italian fascists were aping the Nazis by researching an ideal "Mediterranean" racial type, but the government was little invested in this until 1938, when it finally promulgated a set of racial laws which banned Jews from public office. While Italian nationalists were big on being ITALIANS they had little interest in thinking of themselves as a special race.
3. As an ally of Germany, Italy was a sovereign state, in control of its own territory and policies. There was no effective roundup of Jews under the Italian government, pre-1943. In fact, Italy "unofficailly" took in many refugees from Germany. After the abovementioned racial laws of '38, the government finally began to enrich itself --Nazi-style--by impounding property of Jews. But then mostly "lost" the Jewish owners, who were locally protected. (This is not to say that some weren't fingered by zealous anti-semties; just that there was minimal civilian cooperation.) That only changed in 1943, when the Allies invaded Italy. The Italian government collapsed and Hitler sent in troops to set up the Republic of Salo under Mussolini. Once Hitler had direct control of Italian territory, then active deportation of Italian Jewry began.
So no one has interest in saving Mussolini's name from disgrace except right wing Italian politicians. It is just that he was never effectively behind the ethnic cleansing. It was not until Hitler took over Italy that serious deportations began, so the blame still lies with Hitler.
You mentioned the Vichy regime too. That was a puppet government under Nazi control.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - BFritz21 - 12-26-2017
(12-26-2017, 04:30 PM)Dill Wrote: I can answer that question with a bit of historical background, BFritz.
1. Anti-semitism was/is unevenly distributed in Europe. In occupied Denmark, for example, Danes actively worked to protect Jews. When Nazis ordered Jews wear the yellow armband with a Star of David, millions of Danes, from the King down, donned them to show solidarity. In Eastern Europe, antisemitism was worse than in Germany. When the Nazis invaded Lithuania, the civilian population helped Nazis hunt down their "real enemy," the Jews. Civilians dragged Jewish families from their homes, robbed the homes, raped the women, and turned them all over to the SS. Italy was closer to Denmark on this spectrum, with the 3rd highest rate of survival for Jews in Europe.
2. Racism came late to Italian Fascism. In 1932, Mussolini (with Giovanni Gentile) wrote up comprehensive manifesto of Fascism which mentions race not at all. By the mid 30s, some Italian fascists were aping the Nazis by researching an ideal "Mediterranean" racial type, but the government was little invested in this until 1938, when it finally promulgated a set of racial laws which banned Jews from public office. While Italian nationalists were big on being ITALIANS they had little interest in thinking of themselves as a special race.
3. As an ally of Germany, Italy was a sovereign state, in control of its own territory and policies. There was no effective roundup of Jews under the Italian government, pre-1943. In fact, Italy "unofficailly" took in many refugees from Germany. After the abovementioned racial laws of '39, the government finally began to enrich itself --Nazi-style--by impounding property of Jews. But then mostly "lost" the Jewish owners, who were locally protected. (This is not to say that some weren't fingered by zealous anti-semties; just that there was minimal civilian cooperation.) That only changed in 1943, when the Allies invaded Italy. The Italian government collapsed and Hitler sent in troops to set up the Republic of Salo under Mussolini. Once Hitler had direct control of Italian territory, then active deportation of Italian Jewry began.
So no one has interest in saving Mussolini's name from disgrace except right wing Italian politicians. It is just that he was never effectively behind the ethnic cleansing. It was not until Hitler took over Italy that serious deportations began, so the blame still lies with Hitler.
You mentioned the Vichy regime too. That was a puppet government under Nazi control.
THANKS! I LOVE IT! I could read things like that all day everyday and NEVER lose interest!
It's all so amazing to me.
I never really realized that anti-Semitism was so big in all areas of Europe, but I guess that explains why people ratted out families if they knew or thought they were hiding Jews.
I need to go get ready (going to dinner and then watch the Duke game), but thanks again and I'll read it more in detail later!
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - hollodero - 12-27-2017
(12-26-2017, 04:30 PM)Dill Wrote: 2. Racism came late to Italian Fascism. In 1932, Mussolini (with Giovanni Gentile) wrote up comprehensive manifesto of Fascism which mentions race not at all. By the mid 30s, some Italian fascists were aping the Nazis by researching an ideal "Mediterranean" racial type, but the government was little invested in this until 1938, when it finally promulgated a set of racial laws which banned Jews from public office. While Italian nationalists were big on being ITALIANS they had little interest in thinking of themselves as a special race.
Yup. Mussolini once said racism is for blondes. He had a Jewish lover, took in Jewish refugees, many Jews actually were Italian fascists. He did, however, hold certain anti-semitic views, but the change in politics in '38 stil probably was mainly opportunism. Which, of course, does not diminish the horrendous crimes against the Jews that followed.
(12-26-2017, 07:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I never really realized that anti-Semitism was so big in all areas of Europe, but I guess that explains why people ratted out families if they knew or thought they were hiding Jews.
I need to go get ready (going to dinner and then watch the Duke game), but thanks again and I'll read it more in detail later!
In many places, they used to be scapegoats for all possible kinds of bad things happening. That goes way back to medieval times. E.g. when Banking became a necessity, Jews were pressured to do that sort of business that was deemed too dirty for Christians. That was the birth of the Money Jew.
Also, especially in Germany (and even more so in Austria) many Jews were part of the cultural elite, they were highly educated, influential, conspicious and often well networked - which for the common folk was of course suspicious. This hatred was used and actively perpetuated by many already way before the Nazis, as I said they always were popular scapegoats.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Bengalzona - 12-27-2017
(12-26-2017, 04:30 PM)Dill Wrote: I can answer that question with a bit of historical background, BFritz.
1. Anti-semitism was/is unevenly distributed in Europe. In occupied Denmark, for example, Danes actively worked to protect Jews. When Nazis ordered Jews wear the yellow armband with a Star of David, millions of Danes, from the King down, donned them to show solidarity. In Eastern Europe, antisemitism was worse than in Germany. When the Nazis invaded Lithuania, the civilian population helped Nazis hunt down their "real enemy," the Jews. Civilians dragged Jewish families from their homes, robbed the homes, raped the women, and turned them all over to the SS. Italy was closer to Denmark on this spectrum, with the 3rd highest rate of survival for Jews in Europe.
2. Racism came late to Italian Fascism. In 1932, Mussolini (with Giovanni Gentile) wrote up comprehensive manifesto of Fascism which mentions race not at all. By the mid 30s, some Italian fascists were aping the Nazis by researching an ideal "Mediterranean" racial type, but the government was little invested in this until 1938, when it finally promulgated a set of racial laws which banned Jews from public office. While Italian nationalists were big on being ITALIANS they had little interest in thinking of themselves as a special race.
3. As an ally of Germany, Italy was a sovereign state, in control of its own territory and policies. There was no effective roundup of Jews under the Italian government, pre-1943. In fact, Italy "unofficailly" took in many refugees from Germany. After the abovementioned racial laws of '38, the government finally began to enrich itself --Nazi-style--by impounding property of Jews. But then mostly "lost" the Jewish owners, who were locally protected. (This is not to say that some weren't fingered by zealous anti-semties; just that there was minimal civilian cooperation.) That only changed in 1943, when the Allies invaded Italy. The Italian government collapsed and Hitler sent in troops to set up the Republic of Salo under Mussolini. Once Hitler had direct control of Italian territory, then active deportation of Italian Jewry began.
So no one has interest in saving Mussolini's name from disgrace except right wing Italian politicians. It is just that he was never effectively behind the ethnic cleansing. It was not until Hitler took over Italy that serious deportations began, so the blame still lies with Hitler.
You mentioned the Vichy regime too. That was a puppet government under Nazi control.
Excellent post!
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Bengalzona - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 08:12 AM)hollodero Wrote: In many places, they used to be scapegoats for all possible kinds of bad things happening. That goes way back to medieval times. E.g. when Banking became a necessity, Jews were pressured to do that sort of business that was deemed too dirty for Christians. That was the birth of the Money Jew.
Also, especially in Germany (and even more so in Austria) many Jews were part of the cultural elite, they were highly educated, influential, conspicious and often well networked - which for the common folk was of course suspicious. This hatred was used and actively perpetuated by many already way before the Nazis, as I said they always were popular scapegoats.
Yes.
The Catholic and Orthodox churches forbade Christians from earning interest on loans made due to certain passages in the Bible which discuss usury (Exodus 22:24 (25)—"If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest." Leviticus 25:36— "Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee."). But the Jewish defined usury as "an unusually high rate of interest", not "all interest" (which should give one pause to question seeing as the Bible quotes were all written by Jews in Hebrew). As a result, Jews were the about the only ones in Europe willing to lend money during the Middle Ages. This made some Jewish people quite wealthy. But that wealth brought envy and mistrust. Eventually, Christians would adopt the Jewish definition of usury in the Renaissance (the Medici in Florence were among the first Christians to build their wealth on banking).
But banking wasn't the only thing that led to antisemitism. Like many displaced groups of people throughout history, when the Jews moved to a new town or village they tended to create their own sub-communities for mutual protection and to preserve their traditions (i.e. Jewish Quarters). This is similar to how a lot of immigrants live in America even today. The Jews would try to interact with the society at large by learning the local languages and adhering to local laws. But because they also had their own language and customs and lived separate, they were never assimilated into a common culture and were always looked upon as "others".
Because of this separation, Jews in some places could not own land or farm. Therefore, they had to find other types of work. Banking was one example. Trade was another. During medieval times, most of Christian Europe was locked into feudalism. Most people were serfs who worked on lands owned by lords. There was almost no upward mobility in that arrangement and, as a result, very few people traveled farther than a couple of miles from the place they were born during the entire course of their lives. Trade required people who could travel. The Jews were not locked into the serf/lord arrangement. Hence, they could (and did) travel between towns, villages and cities. Because some in the Jewish community were already active in lending, setting up trade came easy to them. Also, because they were linked to trade and lending, it was easier for them to set up shops in larger villages and in cities. Because of the complexities of trade agreements, there was a need for people who understood the law. This was another field that Jewish people were drawn into.
But this travel and trade had a backlash. When plagues came, such as the Black Plague, those who were traveling between cities were initially blamed for the spread. In some cases, Jewish communities were outright blamed and attacked, either massacring the people or driving them off. Even if there was no plague, this was still a common pasttime among peasants in medieval Europe. The First Crusade started off with the "Peoples Crusade" which decided to rid the Holy Land of the infidels by starting off in their own backyard with the Jewish people (a.k.a. the Rhineland Massacres of 1096).
This might have been more common. However, the Jewish people also had some friends in high places. Because the Jewish communities had people who were making lots of money, they were alos paying a lot of that money to lords, barons, counts, etc. And the nobility liked getting this money. Therefore, the Jewish people had some measure of protection against the mobs of envious and/or superstitious serfs. But if the nobility wanted to extort even more money from the Jews, it was quite easy for them to lift protection in a village or area and encourage attacks in order to set an example.
In Spain, where Christian fervor was rampant after expelling the Moors, the Inquisition began with the goal of converting all non-Christians or killing those who would not convert. They might have have succeeded in doing this in Spain if it were not for a passage in the Book of Revelation that proclaimed that during the end of days, there would be a several thousand Jews still around who would convert at that time. The powers that were in Spain took this quite literally and, hence, several thousand Jews in Spain were saved from death or conversion just by that one phrase. Sort of scary if you think about it.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Bengalzona - 12-27-2017
Another reason the general Italian population isn't judged as harshly as the Nazis is because they actually did depose Mussolini in 1943, something the Germans couldn't do with Hitler. This led to Hitler sending troops and occupying Northern Italy while we were invading from the South.
BTW- A good movie about Jewish people in Italy during World War II is "La Vita Bella".
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Dill - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 01:09 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: In Spain, where Christian fervor was rampant after expelling the Moors, the Inquisition began with the goal of converting all non-Christians or killing those who would not convert. They might have have succeeded in doing this in Spain if it were not for a passage in the Book of Revelation that proclaimed that during the end of days, there would be a several thousand Jews still around who would convert at that time. The powers that were in Spain took this quite literally and, hence, several thousand Jews in Spain were saved from death or conversion just by that one phrase. Sort of scary if you think about it.Well done, B! You laid out the logic of Jewish exclusion very clearly. I would only add there was one more knock against them, namely that they "killed our savior."
On a side note, the family of one of my all time favorite philosophers, Spinoza, was expelled from Spain during the first phase of the Inquisition, eventually settling in Amsterdam. In expelling the Jewish "elites" from Spain, they diminished the kingdom's human resources and enriched England, France and the Dutch Republic's.
Love these history threads.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Dill - 12-27-2017
(12-26-2017, 07:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: THANKS! I LOVE IT! I could read things like that all day everyday and NEVER lose interest!
It's all so amazing to me.
Me too.
If you are interested in the history of Italian anti-semitism, check out this promulgation of the '38 racial laws--what occupations and social relations "ebrei" could no longer have. E.g., they could not teach or administrate in public schools and they could not have "Aryan" servants. Jews who settled in in Italy after WWI were expelled--an idea taken from the Nazi's original Nazi party platform of 1920, where it had been applied to ALL immigrants.
![[Image: pisanty33.jpg]](http://www.kyliemccormick.com/italianholocaust/images/pisanty33.jpg)
http://www.kyliemccormick.com/italianholocaust/laws.htm
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Dill - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 08:12 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yup. Mussolini once said racism is for blondes. He had a Jewish lover, took in Jewish refugees, many Jews actually were Italian fascists. He did, however, hold certain anti-semitic views, but the change in politics in '38 stil probably was mainly opportunism. Which, of course, does not diminish the horrendous crimes against the Jews that followed.
So incoherent, though. To Nazis race scientists, Italians were not "Aryan." But Mussolini's Laws for Defense of the Race redefined them as such. The measurements don't lie though. The elongated cranium pretty much disappears south of Rome.
![[Image: fSOW6407058.png]](https://w3.chabad.org/media/images/640/fSOW6407058.png)
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Bengalzona - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 03:42 PM)Dill Wrote: So incoherent, though. To Nazis race scientists, Italians were not "Aryan." But Mussolini's Laws for Defense of the Race redefined them as such. The measurements don't lie though. The elongated cranium pretty much disappears south of Rome.
Personally, I'd rather hang with folks south of Rome rather than the folks north of it. Much more relaxed!
No offense to my European colleagues, but it has always seemed to me generally that the farther north you travel in Europe, the more businesslike and colder the people seem to be. Not true in every case obviously (I have friends in Scandinavia who are quite warm and friendly). Just a generally (and there are some real jerks in the south too, just to be sure).
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Bengalzona - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 02:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Well done, B! You laid out the logic of Jewish exclusion very clearly. I would only add there was one more knock against them, namely that they "killed our savior."
On a side note, the family of one of my all time favorite philosophers, Spinoza, was expelled from Spain during the first phase of the Inquisition, eventually settling in Amsterdam. In expelling the Jewish "elites" from Spain, they diminished the kingdom's human resources and enriched England, France and the Dutch Republic's.
Love these history threads.
The Jews in Spain around the time of the Reconquista and since are an ethnic subdivision of Judaism known as Sephardi Judaism. It is one of the three largest subdivisions along with Ashkenazi (Central and Eastern Europe) and Mizrachi (Middle East and North Africa). Like Jews throughout Europe, they adopted much of the local culture and flavor and the Yiddish spoken in Iberia had a strong touch of Spanish mixed with it (just as Yiddish in other parts of Europe will sometimes have German, Slavic, or other languages mixed in based upon location). But the culture mix in Iberia was different in that it was not just a mix of two cultures (Jewish and Christian), but also a mix of three cultures (Moorish, as well). This mix of cultures brought some tremendous beauty (such as the mix of Christian and Moorish architecture in Spain). This is also true for the Sephardic Jews and their music. If you ever have a chance to listen to Sephardic music, it is a real treat.
But just as a cultural mix can bring out monumental beauty and creativity in some, it can also inspire tremendous hatred and lack of tolerance in others. This was true when the Moors initially invaded Spain and again 700 years later when the Christians expelled the Moors. Unfortunately for the Jews, who really didn't want to get involved, the fervor of the Christian Reconquista carried over to them and they were in the path of a steamroller.
Not a very effective way for a religion to seek converts.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Dill - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 06:17 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Personally, I'd rather hang with folks south of Rome rather than the folks north of it. Much more relaxed!
No offense to my European colleagues, but it has always seemed to me generally that the farther north you travel in Europe, the more businesslike and colder the people seem to be. Not true in every case obviously (I have friends in Scandinavia who are quite warm and friendly). Just a generally (and there are some real jerks in the south too, just to be sure).
That has been my experience as well.
Once I started to get on a city bus in Vicenza and realized I had no Lire. The driver waived me on anyway. Never happen in Germany! Trains in Italy were always late. In Germany the 8:57 train will not arrive at 8:56 or 8:58. I have many warm German friends, but there is usually a period of getting to know them first.
Germans I encountered seemed to fall into two categories--liberal and authoritarian. The liberals were always friendly and happy to meet an Ami. To the authoritarians I was another "Auslander." They always let me know when I was out of line.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Bengalzona - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 08:30 PM)Dill Wrote: That has been my experience as well.
Once I started to get on a city bus in Vicenza and realized I had no Lire. The driver waived me on anyway. Never happen in Germany! Trains in Italy were always late. In Germany the 8:57 train will not arrive at 8:56 or 8:58. I have many warm German friends, but there is usually a period of getting to know them first.
Germans I encountered seemed to fall into two categories--liberal and authoritarian. The liberals were always friendly and happy to meet an Ami. To the authoritarians I was another "Auslander." They always let me know when I was out of line.
Lira? You are showing your age, my friend!
Reminds me of a story. I had to hop a train in Milan from the new airport to the old one. The train caught fire en route (I'm told this happens quite often). Not a bad smoke and death on the train type fire. Just in the undercarriage somewhere. So they got us all off of the train and there we stood. Not being real fluent in Italian at the time, I wasn't sure where I was or what I should do next. Just standing next to the train tracks in the middle of Milan. Fortunately, I had made friends with a German dude on the flight over. He hailed me cab and (as I picked up from my limited Italian) threatened the driver about overcharging me. Good guy! The drive through Milan was pretty harrowing, though (and that is even comparing it to the driving in Napoli!!!).
But, yeah, the German reputation for precision and exactitude is pretty much unsurpassed.
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Belsnickel - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 08:30 PM)Dill Wrote: That has been my experience as well.
Once I started to get on a city bus in Vicenza and realized I had no Lire. The driver waived me on anyway. Never happen in Germany! Trains in Italy were always late. In Germany the 8:57 train will not arrive at 8:56 or 8:58. I have many warm German friends, but there is usually a period of getting to know them first.
Germans I encountered seemed to fall into two categories--liberal and authoritarian. The liberals were always friendly and happy to meet an Ami. To the authoritarians I was another "Auslander." They always let me know when I was out of line.
Warmth in your interactions only comes with the conversion from "Sie" to "du".
RE: Concentration Camps in Italy? - Belsnickel - 12-27-2017
(12-27-2017, 06:17 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Personally, I'd rather hang with folks south of Rome rather than the folks north of it. Much more relaxed!
No offense to my European colleagues, but it has always seemed to me generally that the farther north you travel in Europe, the more businesslike and colder the people seem to be. Not true in every case obviously (I have friends in Scandinavia who are quite warm and friendly). Just a generally (and there are some real jerks in the south too, just to be sure).
See, my attitude fits in much better with the folks in northern Europe. If I got to native fluency, I'd have zero trouble with a German life.