(01-10-2018, 11:01 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

(01-10-2018, 07:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Is Ben still the Steelers QB?

(01-11-2018, 10:38 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Certainly anything that he accomplishes now is his. We will see how good a coach he is when Ben retires. But then again I don't know that Cowher did all that much pre-Ben either. Well he did make it to the Super Bowl with O'donnell didn't he?

(01-11-2018, 01:02 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: And what was the result of that Super Bowl?  As for the rest, see my previous post.

(01-11-2018, 01:09 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Some no name corner made millions because he caught two balls thrown right at him.  

(01-11-2018, 12:47 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: How many Super Bowls did Cowher win without Ben?

How many did Noll win without Bradshaw?  Or Bellicheck without Brady?  Dungy without Manning?  Landry without Staubach? Lombardi without Starr?  Madden without Stabler? Here's a hint: combined, it's the same number as Bengal Super Bowl wins over the years ...

I get what you're implying, but if having a great QB disqualifies coaches from being considered great, we'd have to eliminate a huge portion of the generally accepted pantheon.  Nearly every coach I mentioned above is either in the Hall of Fame or will be some day, and NONE of them won the Super Bowl without a Hall of Fame-level quarterback.  It has been done, but very few of the historically great coaches have done it.

(01-11-2018, 03:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I wouldn't say it disqualifies them, but i'd like to see how they do when they have to find that new franchise QB and how they do with him, to see how his HC abilities are then perceived. 

Your OP asked about the team--if he's still riding the coat tails. I'd say that's kind of hard to judge when you have a future HOF QB in his prime. The team continues do draft and acquire talent, but i've seen how that team has done when Ben has been down for a period of time. 

(01-11-2018, 11:16 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: So, you prefer to evaluate a coach based on something that in most organizations is the responsibility of someone else?  Yes, I know that a coach is supposed to participate in the process, but most organizations hire someone whose main responsibility is acquiring talent.  The coach may advise the grocery shopping process, but his main responsibility is to be the chef once the ingredients are in place.  

As for how they've done without Ben, how many organizations do you know of that routinely carry two franchise quarterbacks on their roster?  You're holding up a ridiculous standard.  

(01-11-2018, 11:42 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not really holding them to a standard, let alone a ridiculous one. Vick had some success in a couple places. Landry was a major college big program QB. There is/was a lot of talent there. Too much for them to look as bad as they did. 

When Dalton went down in '15, McCarron came in and was able to keep his play at a 90+ QB rating level. 

As i said in my last post, you asked about those that talked about if Tomlin was still riding Cowher's coat tails. As long as he still has Ben, he is in a way. 

(01-12-2018, 08:58 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: To your main point, Tomlin got Ben in only the fourth year of Ben's career.  In reviewing said career, one could argue that he underwent most of his professional growth under Tomlin's tenure.  Ben was not exactly at his most developed point football-wise at that time.  Obviously the head coach isn't solely responsible for that, but he is the guy who put together the staff that helped him grow.

(01-12-2018, 08:58 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Vick came to the Steelers at the end of his career and his level of play was such that he didn't even get picked up that year until the Steelers had a backup get  injuried in training camp.  He was never signed again after that season.  But sure, let's use him as an example of someone the Steelers should have gotten elite play out of.    

As for Landry, the Big 12 doesn't exactly have a reputation for producing elite quarterbacks.  The styles of play are different enough that success there has not necessarily consistently translated into NFL greatness.  Go ahead and name a current elite NFL QB from the Big 12.  Heck, give me your top five all time.  This site put together such a list and they had Kordell Stewsrt at five.  'Nuff said.  

The point is that expecting a coach to get  either one of those two to produce like Ben is ridiculous.  McCarron has the potential to be better than either of those guys (in Vick's case using his Steeler era as the only point of comparison).

To your main point, Tomlin got Ben in only the fourth year of Ben's career.  In reviewing said career, one could argue that he underwent most of his professional growth under Tomlin's tenure.  Ben was not exactly at his most developed point football-wise In 2007.  Obviously the head coach isn't solely responsible for that, but he is the guy who put together the staff that helped him grow.

(01-12-2018, 09:34 AM)6andcounting Wrote: Ben biggest jump in being an on-field coach of a quarterback and overall putting up elite numbers consistently came after Cowher holdout Arians was fired and Tomlin brought in his on OC. So far the biggest mistake on Tomin's career has been keeping Arians 2 years too long. A more tenured coach could have justified firing him about 4 years before Tomlin did. 

(01-12-2018, 01:27 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: What was the issue with Arians? Didn't Ben really like him, and isn't he considered one of the top offensive minds in the NFL, specifically with QBs?

(01-10-2018, 11:01 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

(01-10-2018, 11:01 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

(01-15-2018, 02:03 AM)The Real Deal Wrote: Probably rethinking this thread right about now, eh?

(01-15-2018, 09:08 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Not really.  I’m old enough to remember people calling for Cowher’s head after his failures to win the big ones.  When he finally won the Super Bowl, he erased a LOT of Steeler fan memories of his past failures.

(01-15-2018, 01:34 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Cowhers big loses always came down to having to open up the offense, but being stuck with a shitty quarterback. Throw in some bad special teams play, and that was a classic Cowher lose.

Tomlin's big loses seem to involve trailing early because we wait until the 2nd quarter to start competing, bad situational decision making/clock management and an offensive game plan that played into the strength of the defense. And we get 3 to 4 of them a year.