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+---- Thread: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust (/Thread-Poland-criminalizes-accusing-the-country-of-complicity-during-the-holocaust)
Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - BmorePat87 - 02-07-2018
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/06/world/europe/poland-death-camp-law.html
Poland has a troubled history with regards to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. Poland was a victim of the Nazis, but many Poles also aided the Nazis, killed hundreds of Jews, and took the homes of Jews. Like many nations, survivors and descendants remember the pain but do not forget the actions of some who allowed it to happen.
Poland's nationalist government has decided that Poland's role of a victim in the Holocaust is forgotten over the role of some Poles in helping commit the atrocities. Their solution is to criminalize anyone who suggests that Poland played any sort of role in the atrocities of the Nazis. A fine and up to three years in prison can be faced by anyone who dares to remember the full history of Poland in the Holocaust.
Limiting free speech is sure to create the narrative they want...
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Millhouse - 02-07-2018
I read about this while back, and shook my head. It is a well established fact that many throughout Europe aided the Nazis in rounding up Jewish and non-arian peoples like Gypsies just so they can keep intact their power in areas, like the Vichy France government and the region of where the former Yugoslavia was.
Trying to ban people from bringing out truths from the past is archaic and a wrong path to go down.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Belsnickel - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Trying to ban people from bringing out truths from the past is archaic and a wrong path to go down.
It's a fascist move, plain and simple.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 03:27 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/06/world/europe/poland-death-camp-law.html
Poland has a troubled history with regards to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. Poland was a victim of the Nazis, but many Poles also aided the Nazis, killed hundreds of Jews, and took the homes of Jews. Like many nations, survivors and descendants remember the pain but do not forget the actions of some who allowed it to happen.
Poland's nationalist government has decided that Poland's role of a victim in the Holocaust is forgotten over the role of some Poles in helping commit the atrocities. Their solution is to criminalize anyone who suggests that Poland played any sort of role in the atrocities of the Nazis. A fine and up to three years in prison can be faced by anyone who dares to remember the full history of Poland in the Holocaust.
Limiting free speech is sure to create the narrative they want...
(02-07-2018, 04:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I read about this while back, and shook my head. It is a well established fact that many throughout Europe aided the Nazis in rounding up Jewish and non-arian peoples like Gypsies just so they can keep intact their power in areas, like the Vichy France government and the region of where the former Yugoslavia was.
Trying to ban people from bringing out truths from the past is archaic and a wrong path to go down.
(02-07-2018, 04:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's a fascist move, plain and simple.
I'm against criminalizing any speech that does not directly call for harming others, or the proverbial "fire" in a crowded theatre. Unfortunately, Europe has a well established track record with this type of legislation. Denying the holocaust or any pro-Nazi speech is a criminal act in Germany. The "hate speech" law in the UK is obscenely broad, vague and all encompassing when desired (and an effort is now being made to extend it to protecting politicians from criticism they deem offensive). I'm certain I could find many more examples if I had the inclination.
As offensive as I find the new Polish law I see little to no difference between this and what is already the norm in many European countries that are considered "more liberal" than the US.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Belsnickel - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm against criminalizing any speech that does not directly call for harming others, or the proverbial "fire" in a crowded theatre. Unfortunately, Europe has a well established track record with this type of legislation. Denying the holocaust or any pro-Nazi speech is a criminal act in Germany. The "hate speech" law in the UK is obscenely broad, vague and all encompassing when desired (and an effort is now being made to extend it to protecting politicians from criticism they deem offensive). I'm certain I could find many more examples if I had the inclination.
As offensive as I find the new Polish law I see little to no difference between this and what is already the norm in many European countries that are considered "more liberal" than the US.
And I have problems with those laws as well. I have had long discussions with folks in Germany about some of their laws. I find their speech laws insane, they find our firearm laws insane. It's a fun discussion. Doesn't change what I said.
Also, that those countries are more liberal than us is true only in some regards. But that is a whole other thread.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - BmorePat87 - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm against criminalizing any speech that does not directly call for harming others, or the proverbial "fire" in a crowded theatre. Unfortunately, Europe has a well established track record with this type of legislation. Denying the holocaust or any pro-Nazi speech is a criminal act in Germany. The "hate speech" law in the UK is obscenely broad, vague and all encompassing when desired (and an effort is now being made to extend it to protecting politicians from criticism they deem offensive). I'm certain I could find many more examples if I had the inclination.
As offensive as I find the new Polish law I see little to no difference between this and what is already the norm in many European countries that are considered "more liberal" than the US.
Similarly, I find it less effective to combat holocaust deniers and Nazism by criminalizing it than confronting it with facts and reason. It'll just entrench them further in it.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: And I have problems with those laws as well. I have had long discussions with folks in Germany about some of their laws. I find their speech laws insane, they find our firearm laws insane. It's a fun discussion. Doesn't change what I said.
Also, that those countries are more liberal than us is true only in some regards. But that is a whole other thread.
I know we agree on this issue. I point these things out because it's important to realize that Poland is not operating in a vacuum. They are operating under principles and mores that have been well established by other countries in Europe. I'm all for criticizing Poland regarding this law, it just needs to be done in the same breath as criticizing Germany, the UK and any other country with such strict limits on, and criminalization of, speech.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:36 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Similarly, I find it less effective to combat holocaust deniers and Nazism by criminalizing it than confronting it with facts and reason. It'll just entrench them further in it.
I completely agree. Better to refute someone with logic and facts than to make them a martyr on the pillory.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Belsnickel - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I know we agree on this issue. I point these things out because it's important to realize that Poland is not operating in a vacuum. They are operating under principles and mores that have been well established by other countries in Europe. I'm all for criticizing Poland regarding this law, it just needs to be done in the same breath as criticizing Germany, the UK and any other country with such strict limits on, and criminalization of, speech.
I will say, though, that it is interesting to look at this contextually. Where Germany criminalizes denying the Holocaust, Poland is moving to criminalize claiming Poland was complicit. So Poland is making it illegal to be critical of Poland's role in the Shoah. Now, restricting speech is restricting speech is restricting speech. None of that is good. But when looking at other political events in Poland and Europe (because you're right, it isn't in a vacuum) and looking at who is doing this and the kind of precedent it can set going forward for the country, it paints quite an intriguing picture.
(02-07-2018, 04:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I completely agree. Better to refute someone with logic and facts than to make them a martyr on the pillory.
If only logic and facts worked on most people. This is about a year old, but it's a good read: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I will say, though, that it is interesting to look at this contextually. Where Germany criminalizes denying the Holocaust, Poland is moving to criminalize claiming Poland was complicit. So Poland is making it illegal to be critical of Poland's role in the Shoah. Now, restricting speech is restricting speech is restricting speech. None of that is good. But when looking at other political events in Poland and Europe (because you're right, it isn't in a vacuum) and looking at who is doing this and the kind of precedent it can set going forward for the country, it paints quite an intriguing picture.
Yes, there is a definite distinction between criminalizing holocaust denial and criminalizing criticism of Poland's role in it. However, Holocaust denial laws are not the only example of such restricted speech in Germany. Their "hate speech" laws are every bit as restrictive as those of the UK. People are prosecuted for speech that wouldn't cause a second "look" in the United States. While I think it's overused, the slippery slope argument does have real world applications, and the restriction of speech in otherwise liberal democracies is a perfect example. The fact that younger generations don't realize how important this right is, and are willing to, at least partially, give it up disturbs me to no end.
Quote:If only logic and facts worked on most people. This is about a year old, but it's a good read: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
They've never worked on all people, but they do work on most. I've said it before, sometimes (admittedly) in self serving fashion, that many of the debates I have on this forum are not designed to sway the opinion of the person I am arguing with, it's for the other people reading. I know from messages I receive that this occurs; that I've made an argument that either changes a person's opinion or makes them consider something they hadn't previously. That's why the appeal to logic and facts is so important. Converting the fringe is never the goal.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Belsnickel - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 05:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, there is a definite distinction between criminalizing holocaust denial and criminalizing criticism of Poland's role in it. However, Holocaust denial laws are not the only example of such restricted speech in Germany. Their "hate speech" laws are every bit as restrictive as those of the UK. People are prosecuted for speech that wouldn't cause a second "look" in the United States. While I think it's overused, the slippery slope argument does have real world applications, and the restriction of speech in otherwise liberal democracies is a perfect example. The fact that younger generations don't realize how important this right is, and are willing to, at least partially, give it up disturbs me to no end.
I agree with you on the speech laws specifically, it is just the rest of the context that makes one think about the broader implications.
(02-07-2018, 05:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They've never worked on all people, but they do work on most. I've said it before, sometimes (admittedly) in self serving fashion, that many of the debates I have on this forum are not designed to sway the opinion of the person I am arguing with, it's for the other people reading. I know from messages I receive that this occurs; that I've made an argument that either changes a person's opinion or makes them consider something they hadn't previously. That's why the appeal to logic and facts is so important. Converting the fringe is never the goal.
I wouldn't agree that it works on most. There are certainly some where it does, I know I am a person where the appeal to logic is typically the better route (typically is key, some issues I am too close to, admittedly). But most people work better with an appeal to emotion. Also, confirmation bias is real and possibly (based on studies the author in that linked article talks about) an actual evolutionary concept that can be difficult to override.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Millhouse - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 04:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I know we agree on this issue. I point these things out because it's important to realize that Poland is not operating in a vacuum. They are operating under principles and mores that have been well established by other countries in Europe. I'm all for criticizing Poland regarding this law, it just needs to be done in the same breath as criticizing Germany, the UK and any other country with such strict limits on, and criminalization of, speech.
I can agree overall, but I do completely understand why it is a crime in Germany to show acts of Nazism whether through clothing, flags, gestures and so-on. On that one issue I can go with because of not only what they Nazis did, but because of how many were never prosecuted for their crimes and went back into the population as everyday citizens. If there is one group of people that modern day people do not want history to repeat itself with so to speak, it is them.
I get what you are saying, but I cant equally put those things on the same level as each other.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - hollodero - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 06:27 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I can agree overall, but I do completely understand why it is a crime in Germany to show acts of Nazism whether through clothing, flags, gestures and so-on. On that one issue I can go with because of not only what they Nazis did, but because of how many were never prosecuted for their crimes and went back into the population as everyday citizens. If there is one group of people that modern day people do not want history to repeat itself with so to speak, it is them.
- Nazi activities are also punishable by law in my country, and while I am torn on that issue regarding free speech and all, it was definitely a valuable law. It forced the former Nazis into hiding/shutting up, and thank god they weren't a factor, that was unvaluable for our democracy and still is.
In the end I feel that unconstitutional speech does not necessarily fall into the protection granted by that very constitution. To oversimplify it, it might boil down to the question if promoting an end to free speech should be protected by free speech. And maybe yes, but drawing a line with Nazis had its merits and did not lead to a "slippery slope" situation.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - SunsetBengal - 02-07-2018
(02-07-2018, 03:27 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/06/world/europe/poland-death-camp-law.html
Poland has a troubled history with regards to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. Poland was a victim of the Nazis, but many Poles also aided the Nazis, killed hundreds of Jews, and took the homes of Jews. Like many nations, survivors and descendants remember the pain but do not forget the actions of some who allowed it to happen.
Poland's nationalist government has decided that Poland's role of a victim in the Holocaust is forgotten over the role of some Poles in helping commit the atrocities. Their solution is to criminalize anyone who suggests that Poland played any sort of role in the atrocities of the Nazis. A fine and up to three years in prison can be faced by anyone who dares to remember the full history of Poland in the Holocaust.
Limiting free speech is sure to create the narrative they want...
That's not so bad. As I understand it's a crime in NYC to not address someone by their preferred pronoun of choice.
Talk about limitations on free speech..
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - BmorePat87 - 02-08-2018
(02-07-2018, 08:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That's not so bad. As I understand it's a crime in NYC to not address someone by their preferred pronoun of choice.
Talk about limitations on free speech..
No, it's not. Employers can be fined for discriminating against employees by purposefully misusing pronouns.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - michaelsean - 02-08-2018
I don't really care if it's the truth or not. Even if Poland were 100% a victim, and people were talking about their complicity, that's their business. If I want to go about and say the US government was actually behind the Final Solution,and put up some crazy website with all my "proof" then that's my right.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-08-2018
(02-07-2018, 07:38 PM)hollodero Wrote:
- Nazi activities are also punishable by law in my country, and while I am torn on that issue regarding free speech and all, it was definitely a valuable law. It forced the former Nazis into hiding/shutting up, and thank god they weren't a factor, that was unvaluable for our democracy and still is.
In the end I feel that unconstitutional speech does not necessarily fall into the protection granted by that very constitution. To oversimplify it, it might boil down to the question if promoting an end to free speech should be protected by free speech. And maybe yes, but drawing a line with Nazis had its merits and did not lead to a "slippery slope" situation.
I always appreciate yous posts, even when I don't agree with them, as you bring a perspective that we, as Americans, lack. De-nazification was absolutely a sound policy. As it has served its purpose it has been ended. The reasons behind the laws that still exist are no longer valid. I realize that Europe, as a whole, does not have the tradition of free speech that we have here, nor is this right enshrined in the founding documents of the national governments there. I have to say that I think you're wrong about the "slippery slope" though. I only need to see how some here are attempting to erode the right to free speech in this country to realize how important this right is.
(02-08-2018, 12:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't really care if it's the truth or not. Even if Poland were 100% a victim, and people were talking about their complicity, that's their business. If I want to go about and say the US government was actually behind the Final Solution,and put up some crazy website with all my "proof" then that's my right.
In the United States, it absolutely is. We need to remember this now more than ever as we have many people who would be happy to restrict speech in this country.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - StLucieBengal - 02-08-2018
(02-08-2018, 09:55 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, it's not. Employers can be fined for discriminating against employees by purposefully misusing pronouns.
That’s even worse.
All this does is make it more difficult to hire someone with a weird pronoun. No way would I even entertain adding that nonsense to my everyday life.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - BmorePat87 - 02-08-2018
(02-08-2018, 01:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That’s even worse.
All this does is make it more difficult to hire someone with a weird pronoun. No way would I even entertain adding that nonsense to my everyday life.
So non discrimination in the workplace laws are worse than bans on free speech and it's harder for people to not go out of their way to be a douche bag?
Solid points.
RE: Poland criminalizes accusing the country of complicity during the holocaust - StLucieBengal - 02-09-2018
(02-08-2018, 01:21 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So non discrimination in the workplace laws are worse than bans on free speech and it's harder for people to not go out of their way to be a douche bag?
Solid points.
A law about pronouns is not productive. There is no way I would hire anyone who wants their own pronoun under that law. As an employer why take the risk?