(06-08-2020, 03:04 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Michael Harriot of the Root, whose videos I use in class to cover a ton of great history of racial policies, had this great response to people bringing up black on black crime, breaking down the actual statistics compared to white on white crime and the degree to which black people give back to their communities compared to other groups.  

It wasn't long ago that members here were posting links from Stormfront to argue that black people were inherently more criminal. The racism exists, and here's a tool to confront it. Check it out. There's over 20 tweets in this thread, so I won't be able to post them all here

https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1268463768285188096

(06-10-2020, 09:33 AM)GMDino Wrote: Hate to see it.  

New Jersey corrections officer suspended and a FedEx worker fired after a video showed the two men, who are both white, mocking George Floyd’s death at a protest. https://t.co/18RlQU7JYr

— NBC News (@NBCNews) June 10, 2020

 

(06-10-2020, 11:19 AM)Dill Wrote: LOL I have never seen anyone develop and support an argument so well on Twitter as Harriot.

One complaint about it though: "racism" is a pretty vague explanation, when simply dropped into an argument as Harrington does.

Someone who thinks Blacks don't address black on black crime, that a larger percentage of blacks "decide" to commit crimes and the like, is going to read Harriot's usage as a claim that whites "decide" to be racists.  Since most believe they have decided no such thing, they'll not be able to recognize "racism" as a cause or understand it as an explanation.  

(06-10-2020, 09:18 AM)GMDino Wrote: To the bold:  If there wasn't outrage how would ever know about it?

All seriousness aside it has already devolved into a definition battle.  Reform has been needed for a long time.  It has happened in some places already.  Just like any reform there will be resistence because "that's the way it was always done" and there will be overreaction that hurt the reforms also.

It takes time.  But sooner or later it has to start.

(06-10-2020, 12:59 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I agree with all of this, I just think that like a lot of liberal proposals, there's a messaging problem. 

(06-10-2020, 01:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: That always seems to be the issue.  

And you'd think with liberals controlling the media, schools, social media, etc they'd be better at getting their message out.  

(06-10-2020, 11:19 AM)Dill Wrote: LOL I have never seen anyone develop and support an argument so well on Twitter as Harriot.

(06-10-2020, 06:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  He dodges the overall crime rate by hiding behind the term "black-on-black".  Who cares if the "white-on-white" percentage is the same as the "black-on-black" percentage if the OVERALL violent crime rate is almost twice as high for blacks.

And it is hilarious that he acts like white people SHOULDN'T know what the black community is doing about crime at the same time that white people are getting criticized for "not knowing what is going on in black neighborhoods."  You can't have it both ways.  You can't call white people uncaring for not knowing something and then get mad when they ask about something.  If black people are going to demand that white people stand up with them and help them then they are going to have to tell us what the problem is.

(06-10-2020, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fred is killing this thread.  I think what many, if not most, people don't realize about the point being made by Fred, myself and others is that you are not helping the black community by ignoring this obvious issue.  The problems in the black community are not solely caused by systemic racism.  While that certainly is a significant part of the problem it cannot explain it away entirely.  If it could then you'd see similar numbers for other minority groups, which you absolutely do not.  Native Americans got the shaft even worse than the black community, and while they do commit crime at a disproportionate rate, it's nothing even close to the numbers coming out of the black community.  A large part of the frustration comes from knowing that as much as people say they want to assist the black community, or empower them, or whatever term you choose to use, you can't solve a problem if you ignore a significant part of it.

There is a problem when around 7% of the population commits over half the murders.  This should really concern the black community as black people account for the overwhelming percentage of these murder victims.  Acknowledging this is not diminishing the effect of systemic racism, as it appears many believe it does.  This is obviously not helped by the use of such statistics by people who obviously want to discount the role of racism in the problem at all.  But pretending this is not a problem is just as deleterious as a Tucker Carlson pretending racism isn't contributing to the issue at all.  It's analogous to a person coming into an ER with a through and through gunshot wound to the chest.  The doctor patches up the entrance wound and then is confused why the patient still died because they ignored the exit wound.

I think your 1930's glamorizing of criminals by whites is spot on, Fred.  A similar problem exists today.  It's also exacerbated by absentee fatherism and a high teen pregnancy rate.  The majority of the people I work with are black.  The vast majority of them had both parents in their life growing up and parents who actually parented.  I don't care what ethnicity you are, if you lack one, and especially both, of those things your chances of falling into criminal conduct skyrocket.  In summation, if you really care about the future of the black community, which I know I do, and I believe Fred does as well, you have to acknowledge the whole problem.  Doing so does not excuse or mitigate the racism element of the issue, but pretending that's the only issue is just as damaging from an ultimate results standpoint.  

(06-10-2020, 11:39 PM)jason Wrote: That's all pretty spot on, but couldn't a case be made that absentee fathers, and the high rate of teen pregnancy are a result of the traditional family unit being stripped from black people the moment they set foot in North America? I don't have numbers, and those same issues seem to be prevalent among poor whites too, but it seems like the lack of regard around breaking up families of people who were slaves could have some carryover.

Quote:When Moynihan wrote in 1965 on the coming destruction of the Black family, the out-of-wedlock birth rate was 25% among Blacks.[19] In 1991, 68% of Black children were born outside of marriage.[20] In 2011, 72% of Black babies were born to unmarried mothers.[21][22] In 2015, 77% of Black babies were born to unmarried mothers.

(06-10-2020, 11:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's a very reasonable assumption.  However, the black family unit did not begin disintegrating until the early 70's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure


There are several theories for this disintegration.  Some blame the war on drugs, which is certainly a possibility.  Others blame the welfare state, for which I personally tend to lend more credence.  The "war on drugs" certainly contributed, I would not deny this.  But I think the degradation of self esteem inherent in being reliant on others to live coupled with the financial incentive to have more children is a more likely culprit.

(06-11-2020, 12:10 AM)hollodero Wrote: If that were true, the problem would have to be way more prevalent in Europe, doesn't it?

Quote:For I personally think the exact opposite is true, that permanent fear of financial ruin, homelessness and the like, the sheer hopelessness people have to live in for there's no ladder to climb and no safety net if that already exceptionally hard ladder climbing should not work out so well leads to more desperation, more crime, less responsibility etc. I might be dead wrong, but to me all the prevalent problems are rather economical ones than distinct black community ones. Blacks just happen to be poor and desperate more often. And the US system is one for "winners", while the "losers" and "loser communities" (often being determined loser communities given their starting position) disintegrate.

(06-11-2020, 12:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why?  Being dependent on the state is far more prevalent in Europe.  In the United States being dependent on others is a vastly negative trait.  Cultural norms matter, discounting them will lead you to faulty conclusions.

(06-11-2020, 12:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: While I concede the logic of your general point it utterly fails to address why other, generally, poorer communities, such as Hispanics, and especially Native Americans, do not show the same disparate numbers as far as criminality, single parent households and teenage pregnancy.

(06-11-2020, 12:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Comparing the United States to various European nations doesn't help in this regard.  Besides, your "minority" populations are comparatively minuscule in comparison.  You might have a valid point in twenty years in this regard if things stay as is, but I think the numbers won't be as favorable for you by then as they are now.  I suppose we shall see.

(06-10-2020, 06:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  He dodges the overall crime rate by hiding behind the term "black-on-black".  Who cares if the "white-on-white" percentage is the same as the "black-on-black" percentage if the OVERALL violent crime rate is almost twice as high for blacks.

And it is hilarious that he acts like white people SHOULDN'T know what the black community is doing about crime at the same time that white people are getting criticized for "not knowing what is going on in black neighborhoods."  You can't have it both ways.  You can't call white people uncaring for not knowing something and then get mad when they ask about something.  If black people are going to demand that white people stand up with them and help them then they are going to have to tell us what the problem is.

(06-10-2020, 01:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: That always seems to be the issue.  

And you'd think with liberals controlling the media, schools, social media, etc they'd be better at getting their message out.  

(06-10-2020, 11:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's a very reasonable assumption.  However, the black family unit did not begin disintegrating until the early 70's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure


There are several theories for this disintegration.  Some blame the war on drugs, which is certainly a possibility.  Others blame the welfare state, for which I personally tend to lend more credence.  The "war on drugs" certainly contributed, I would not deny this.  But I think the degradation of self esteem inherent in being reliant on others to live coupled with the financial incentive to have more children is a more likely culprit.  I fully realize that this position puts more "blame" for the problem on the left than the right, as opposed to blaming the war on drugs.  It's very likely they both had a negative impact.  The problem is both sides refuse to acknowledge the damage their political positions did.  Help is not always helpful and punishment is not always character building or otherwise constructive.  Acknowledging the damage caused by both positions would go a long way towards fixing the current problem.  Of course, neither side would dare to recognize their role in this.

(06-10-2020, 11:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's a very reasonable assumption.  However, the black family unit did not begin disintegrating until the early 70's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure


There are several theories for this disintegration.  Some blame the war on drugs, which is certainly a possibility.  Others blame the welfare state, for which I personally tend to lend more credence.  The "war on drugs" certainly contributed, I would not deny this.  But I think the degradation of self esteem inherent in being reliant on others to live coupled with the financial incentive to have more children is a more likely culprit.  I fully realize that this position puts more "blame" for the problem on the left than the right, as opposed to blaming the war on drugs.  It's very likely they both had a negative impact.  The problem is both sides refuse to acknowledge the damage their political positions did.  Help is not always helpful and punishment is not always character building or otherwise constructive.  Acknowledging the damage caused by both positions would go a long way towards fixing the current problem.  Of course, neither side would dare to recognize their role in this.

(06-11-2020, 08:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would argue that it is the war on drugs that has left black communities without male role models. The data shows that they aren't there in the neighborhoods. If it was the welfare state then they would be around even if not in the household.

That being said, our shitty welfare system is in part to blame for the violence. The strongest correlation to non-state/criminal violence around the world is income inequality. Considering we, here in the US, have inequality on par more with developing nations rather than our WEIRD nation cohorts, I'd say that plays a strong role.

Quote:President Richard Nixon in 1971 declared a US "war on drugs" that, over the decades, fueled mass incarceration and the crisis at the US's southern border without preventing Americans from accessing dangerous drugs, and one of his top aides say it's because it was a racist policy implemented as a power grab. 

Criminalizing possession of drugs like heroin and marijuana was intended to "disrupt" two of the biggest anti-establishment forces that opposed Nixon, one of his top advisors later admitted.


...


Dan Baum, the author of 1996's "Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics of Failure," [/url]wrote in Harper's Magazine in 2016 that while researching his book, Ehrlichman gave a reason for the war of drugs that had little to do with protecting Americans from reefer madness.



A Black Panther leader, identified only as “Shotgun," addresses a mid-day rally of Illinois Black Panthers outside the Federal Building in downtown Chicago, May 1, 1969. Associated Press/Charles Knoblock



Baum wrote that Ehrlichman, following his very public scrutiny and conviction, had "little left to protect" and came clean about a shocking truth.




"You want to know what this was really all about?" Ehrlichman asked, referring to the war on drugs.




"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news."

"Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did," he concluded, according to Baum. 



Read more: [url=http://businessinsider.com/ronald-reagan-uses-racist-language-against-africans-in-released-tape-2019-7]Ronald Reagan uses racist language against Africans on unearthed recording with Richard Nixon



Erlichman's account matches closely to the era's troubled history, when antiwar and black leaders regularly found themselves subject to investigations, scrutiny, searches, and imprisonment for drug possession.