(06-24-2020, 09:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fredtoast: In the same exact post where you claimed that a shot to the leg is only "slightly less lethal" you also claimed that the cop who shot Rashard Brooks would never face charges and would get his job back because he was being mistreated.

Yeah, my bad. I mistakenly thought the Fulton County DA was a professional and not a politically motivated, contradictory, fraud.

Simmer down,Freddy you’ll shoot in your pants. You’re wholly ignorant in this subject. Quit trying to obscure your obvious embarrassment and quit while you’re behind.

(06-25-2020, 01:39 PM)Dill Wrote: So you are explaining your "mistake" with reference to the character of Fulton County DA, not your understanding of how Federal/Georgia law might or should apply to the circumstances of Brooks' shooting? 

If the problem is really the DA's character and not your understanding of the law, then I'd like to know why you assumed that shooting a fleeing, unarmed suspect in the back should lead to dismissal of charges against him and reinstatement of his job.

The DA wrong, why?  And please, not just some impressions. If you are not "wholly ignorant in this subject," identify the legal precedents which should govern the shooting of Brooks and the firing of Rolfe, and his  subsequent arrest.

Then explain how or where the DA has has applied the law "fraudulently."  

(06-24-2020, 09:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:

Fredtoast: Wrote:High powered rifle rounds are obviously much more lethal than handguns, but because of the lack of major organs in your legs you are much less likely to die from a would to the leg instead of the head or body.  A SCIENTIFIC STUDY THAT PROVES THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN POSTED.

This is a bold faced lie. The study posted used only pistol rounds, which you finally agreed, once you looked foolish for several posts, are far more lethal. 
Seeing as you’ve proven you know nothing about firearms no one should care what you have to say in the subject.

(06-25-2020, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I never said anything about pistols or rifles.  All I said was that s scientific study has been posted that shows gunshots to limbs are not as deadly as gunshot wounds to the torso.

And you have NOTHING to prove it is any different with rifles.  You just keep panting about how smart you are.  All I am asking is for the source of your knowledge.  You had to learn it somewhere, right?  

Just to be clear, we all agree rifles are more deadly than handguns.  What I want to see is the source of your claim that wounds to the leg are only "slightly less lethal" than shots to the torso.

(06-24-2020, 01:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote: I have never used the IDF as a paragon of constraint. However could you get there when I make a point IDF soldiers and their command know full well they can hit people behind their initial targets? They use lethal weapons for non-lethal purposes. They are mentioned as evidence that your "aim-for-body-mass" mantra is simply not universal, and to introduce an external point of ROE comparison.

Yes, you did, at least in comparison to US LEO's.  I explained, in detail, why aiming for something other than center mass is bad policy and, additionally, why aiming for the thigh (trying to hit the shin/calf is exponentially more difficult than the thigh, which is difficult on its own) is only slightly less lethal than aiming center mass. 

(06-24-2020, 10:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It seems the GOP wants to address police reform but the Dems don't even want to discussnit:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/policing-reform-bill-fails-move-forward-senate-174100639.html

Hopefully the House GOP consider the bill the House will introduce so we can discuss reform and the Dems can say it was their idea.

(06-24-2020, 10:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: Closing your eyes and shooting randomly is more likely to hurt an innocent bystander too.  How many hypothetical situations should we look at so you can have his back?  

(06-24-2020, 09:45 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I kind of combine them, but I still think a landscape painting is art, and I'd have to exclude performing arts I suppose.   Photography is a tough one for me.  I can obviously take a picture, but there is a certain eye and a way of capturing a picture that I cannot.  But something that is 100% idea and zero physical talent just doesn't qualify for me.

(06-24-2020, 02:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:
The vests that UK police wear are stab vests designed to stop knives.
The vests that US police wear are ballistic vests designed to stop bullets.

One isn't good for the other. 

(06-24-2020, 11:14 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Super duper interesting.  Put a crucifix in a tank of urine and take a picture.  

Quote:Colorado governor's office to examine case of Black man who died in police custody after millions demand justice



(CNN)A recent social media outcry demanding Colorado officials launch an independent investigation into the 2019 death of a 23-year-old Black man in police custody has prompted Gov. Jared Polis to announce his administration will reexamine the case.

In a series of tweets Wednesday, Polis wrote, "a fair and objective process free from real or perceived bias for investigating officer-involved killings is critical." Polis added that he is having lawyers "examine what the state can do and we are assessing next steps."

The announcement came after more than 2 million people signed a petition urging officials to conduct a new investigation into the death of Elijah McClain, who died after police officers from the Denver suburb Aurora put him in a chokehold. McClain's death is one of several cases to receive renewed scrutiny following the police killings of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and others in incidents sparking massive protests across the country.


[/url]
Police reforms quickly take hold across America. It's only just getting started
On August 24, 2019, McClain was stopped by three White officers as he walked home from a convenience store, after a 911 caller described a "suspicious person," according to a police overview of the incident.
McClain resisted officer contact, the report says, and a struggle ensued. On one of the officers' body cameras, McClain is heard saying, "I'm an introvert, please respect the boundaries that I am speaking."

Body cam video shows McClain telling officers that he was trying to stop his music to listen to them, then they begin to arrest him. One officer is heard telling another, "He just grabbed your gun, dude."


The video shows an officer wrestle McClain to the ground.

At one point during the struggle, an officer is heard telling McClain, "If you keep messing around, I'm going to bring my dog out and he's going to dog bite you."



The cities, states and countries finally putting an end to police neck restraints
An officer placed McClain in a carotid hold, or chokehold, and he briefly lost consciousness, according to an overview of the incident provided by police. They released the hold, the report says, and he began struggling again. When paramedics arrived at the scene they administered ketamine to sedate McClain, the report said. According to a letter from the district attorney, McClain suffered a heart attack while in the ambulance, and he was declared brain dead three days later.

An autopsy did not determine a cause of death but listed intense physical exertion and a narrow left coronary artery as contributing factors, according to the police overview. The coroner found the amount of ketamine in his system to be a therapeutic amount.

'He was an angel among humans'
The Adams County district attorney, Dave Young, declined to file criminal charges in the case at the time. In February this year, a police review board declared, "[t]he force applied during the altercation to include the carotid control hold and the force applied during the altercation was within policy and consistent with training."

The officers in the case were placed on administrative leave following McClain's death, but were later reinstated after prosecutors declined to file charges against them.

Asked about the social media petition and if it would sway him to take new action in the case, Young told CNN, "we've got to have the evidence ... so the petitions, the emails, the voicemails and Facebook attacks to me, my family, everyone else expressing their opinions ... is not evidence." Young added that he doesn't "condone the actions of the officers. I think they could've done things differently."



[url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/politics/colorado-polis-police-body-cameras-banning-chokeholds/index.html]Colorado governor signs bill mandating police body cameras and banning chokeholds
Separately, the city of Aurora is planning an independent investigation, telling CNN in an email: "The mayor, City Council and city manager are working to initiate a new independent, external review of the actions of police, firefighters and paramedics in the Elijah McClain case. We are considering a team of experts from across the country to be involved and provide insight from different perspectives, but the exact participants have not been selected yet."

An attorney for the McClain family, Mari Newman, called for officials to bring charges against the officers.

"It shouldn't take millions of people signing a petition, and it shouldn't take international media attention for elected officials to do their jobs," Newman told CNN affiliate KCNC.

"He was an angel among humans," Newman said of McClain. "He would go to play his violin on lunch hour to animals who were waiting to be adopted so they wouldn't be lonely."

On Friday, Gov. Polis signed new police accountability legislation into law. The Enhance Law Enforcement Integrity Act mandates body cameras, requires public reporting on policing, prevents rehiring of "bad actors," holds individual officers liable for their actions, restricts the use of chemical agents and projectiles, and establishes that officers can only use deadly force when there is an imminent risk of danger to human life if apprehension is delayed, according to a joint press release from the General Assembly Democrats last week.
The legislation also repeals officer's authority to use chokeholds and other dangerous tactics, the release said.

(06-25-2020, 06:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Each of us should watch the whole speech, but here's some outtakes:

(06-25-2020, 07:01 PM)GMDino Wrote: And they just keep coming...

The Adams County district attorney, Dave Young, declined to file criminal charges in the case at the time. In February this year, a police review board declared, "[t]he force applied during the altercation to include the carotid control hold and the force applied during the altercation was within policy and consistent with training."

The officers in the case were placed on administrative leave following McClain's death, but were later reinstated after prosecutors declined to file charges against them.

(06-25-2020, 07:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What a waste of time.  The ONLY issue he mentioned was chokeholds and the Senate bill refused to ban them.

But I can see how people who have been brainwashed to believe policy doesn't matter because everything is about hating Republicans would be impressed.  They really go for the meaningless bullshit and ignore the lies about the ACTUAL POLICY ISSUES just so they can point the fingers at Democrats.

(06-25-2020, 01:39 PM)Dill Wrote: So you are explaining your "mistake" with reference to the character of Fulton County DA, not your understanding of how Federal/Georgia law might or should apply to the circumstances of Brooks' shooting? 

If the problem is really the DA's character and not your understanding of the law, then I'd like to know why you assumed that shooting a fleeing, unarmed suspect in the back should lead to dismissal of charges against Rolfe and reinstatement of his job.

The DA wrong, why?  And please, not just some impressions. If you are not "wholly ignorant in this subject," identify the legal precedents which should govern the shooting of Brooks and the firing of Rolfe, and his  subsequent arrest.

Then explain how or where the DA has has applied the law "fraudulently."  

(06-25-2020, 01:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Uh oh...someone gonna be called obtuse!  

(06-25-2020, 02:14 PM)Dill Wrote: Fred has NOT proven he knows nothing about firearms. And you have not proven that either, or that he looks foolish.  You've just claimed it and then performed a verbal endzone dance.

Quote:Once these points are made, then it won't do to dodge them by claiming no one should care what Fred has to say.

Granting, as Fred does, that rifles are more deadly than handguns, what reason is there to believe leg shots with a rifle are only "slightly" less lethal?  Is this based on some data set you are familiar with? Have you witnessed lots of leg vs center mass shots with rifles? Why shouldn't ratio of lethality between body and leg shots from rifles remain roughly similar to that of handguns, even as overall lethality increases?  We are going from a 1-to-84 ratio to what, 4-to-81? 10-to-75? 41-to-44?

(06-25-2020, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I never said anything about pistols or rifles.  All I said was that s scientific study has been posted that shows gunshots to limbs are not as deadly as gunshot wounds to the torso.

And you have NOTHING to prove it is any different with rifles.  

Quote:Until we get that, then going forward we'll have to assume that "slightly less" is just a guess on your part, dressed by mention of rifle calibers you suppose no one else has heard of to show how much you know.

Quote:And a guess to fog the real issue here, namely police ROE, how police, using handguns, really are or or not constrained.

(06-25-2020, 04:13 PM)Dill Wrote: ?? Not sure how this relates to my point or question.

I was just trying to get SSF to support his claim that violent crime was "soaring" in the UK and their policing is "tragically comic."

(06-25-2020, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I never said anything about pistols or rifles.  

(06-24-2020, 06:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We were not talking about rifles being more deadly than handguns.