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Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - GMDino - 07-12-2018 So rather than fix the problems that were found they decided to just ignore everything? I suppose "that'll show 'em to question the police!" https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/ Quote:Just before a wave of violence turned Baltimore into the nation’s deadliest big city, a curious thing happened to its police force: officers suddenly seemed to stop noticing crime. This is nothing short of them being big babies. They don't want to try and do their job better so they just quit doing anything where THEY might be questioned. Sad. As some say: There is a middle ground between what the investigations found out about the violation of constitutional rights and just ignoring EVERYTHING. If they can't do it...quit. That goes all the way up. Police work is inherently dangerous and an incredible responsibility. With that come more criticism than the guy who is an accountant or taxi driver. Don't like it? Go away and let people who are willing to learn and work do the job. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Beaker - 07-12-2018 Did anybody watch The Wire? RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 10:27 AM)GMDino Wrote: So rather than fix the problems that were found they decided to just ignore everything? More pro cop stories from GM, shocking to say the least. I can't speak for Baltimore, having never been there. I can tell you that rank and file officers notice that administration does not have their back when a citizen complains. Complaints are taken as gospel, regardless of how improbable or outlandish they are. If the officer and deputies on the street know that admin is going to feed them to the wolves if something goes south they're going to take far fewer chances. That guy looks suspicious, I won't stop and question him because I might get accused of profiling. The biggest issue is arm chair quarterbacking, something GM excels at so this should interest him. A decision is a good decision based on why it was made at the time. The results of said decision do not determine if the decision was a good one. Unfortunately the opposite mentality has firmly taken hold. This has a stifling effect on the initiative of individual officers. One of my early mentors told me something that could not have been more true; you can't get fired for being incompetent, you can get fired for doing too much. Now feel free to return to you castigation of people who do a job you can't do and have no idea how to do. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - GMDino - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:09 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: More pro cop stories from GM, shocking to say the least. I can't speak for Baltimore, having never been there. I can tell you that rank and file officers notice that administration does not have their back when a citizen complains. Complaints are taken as gospel, regardless of how improbable or outlandish they are. If the officer and deputies on the street know that admin is going to feed them to the wolves if something goes south they're going to take far fewer chances. That guy looks suspicious, I won't stop and question him because I might get accused of profiling. The biggest issue is arm chair quarterbacking, something GM excels at so this should interest him. Weird...seems very few officers get convicted of anything. Hard to say no one has their back when they don't get charged or go unconvicted in the vast majority of cases. I'd like to say I have experience at EVERYTHING (like some people claim) that is above and beyond the average poster on these boards, but I do not. All I have is the stuff I see and read and research. However... This line: Quote:A decision is a good decision based on why it was made at the time. The results of said decision do not determine if the decision was a good one. ...is one of the least smart things I have ever seen you post. I can't even begin to get into why that is an inane way to look at decisions and their results. Yes, we all try to make the best decisions we can based on what we know at the time but to completely disregard the results of the decision is so dumb I don't even know where to start with it. Seriously. But feel free to defend people not doing their job so they can't get in trouble for doing their jobs poorly. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Millhouse - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 10:52 AM)Beaker Wrote: Did anybody watch The Wire? A few years ago I was listening to Dan Patrick on his radio show, and he said that was his favorite show ever. So luckily I had HBO and watched all of it on demand. Awesome show. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:16 AM)GMDino Wrote: Weird...seems very few officers get convicted of anything. Hard to say no one has their back when they don't get charged or go unconvicted in the vast majority of cases. Please learn to read. I said admin does not have their back. The District Attorney's office files charges, not admin. The court system determines innocence or guilt, not admin. Also, not being convicted but losing your job is still a horrible outcome, especially to a long serving officer. Not to mention that myriad disciplinary actions up to and including dismissal don't reach the level of alleged criminal conduct. Quote:I'd like to say I have experience at EVERYTHING (like some people claim) that is above and beyond the average poster on these boards, but I do not. All I have is the stuff I see and read and research. However... Based on what you've admitted to your life experience is very limited on the subjects you tend to discuss the most on this board. Quote:This line: Again, learn to read. If a decision is made for a good reason when it was made then the decision was a good one. This is so simple as to not require much brain power to understand, yet you seem incapable of grasping it. Your results based accountability is exactly the type of thinking that's getting the type of policing in Baltimore that you're simpering about in this thread. Quote:But feel free to defend people not doing their job so they can't get in trouble for doing their jobs poorly. Poor, poor black and white world view Dino. There's an enormous middle ground between not doing your job at all and doing an exceptional job. The sooner you join us in the the adult world and realize that the world isn't an on/off switch the better you'll do on this board and likely everywhere else. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:25 AM)Millhouse Wrote: A few years ago I was listening to Dan Patrick on his radio show, and he said that was his favorite show ever. So luckily I had HBO and watched all of it on demand. Awesome show. Omar is probably one of the most well written characters on any show, ever. Poor Dookie. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - michaelsean - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:32 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Omar is probably one of the most well written characters on any show, ever. I've seen him in 3 different shows, and all of his characters are great. Sad to say Hap and Leonard was not renewed. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - GMDino - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Again, learn to read. If a decision is made for a good reason when it was made then the decision was a good one. This is so simple as to not require much brain power to understand, yet you seem incapable of grasping it. Your results based accountability is exactly the type of thinking that's getting the type of policing in Baltimore that you're simpering about in this thread. Whose "good reason"? Foolish. Asinine. But if you believe that I feel sorry for anyone who suffers due to your "good reason" since results don't matter later. (07-12-2018, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Poor, poor black and white world view Dino. There's an enormous middle ground between not doing your job at all and doing an exceptional job. The sooner you join us in the the adult world and realize that the world isn't an on/off switch the better you'll do on this board and likely everywhere else. Weird because I said in the OP (that you didn't read, just responded because you think I hate all cops...not just the bad ones) (07-12-2018, 10:27 AM)GMDino Wrote: As some say: There is a middle ground between what the investigations found out about the violation of constitutional rights and just ignoring EVERYTHING. That middle ground would be doing your job. But since this will be all "you don't know anything" and personal attacks I'll let you talk to the ether for awhile. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:51 AM)GMDino Wrote: Whose "good reason"? Foolish. Asinine. But if you believe that I feel sorry for anyone who suffers due to your "good reason" since results don't matter later. There are these concepts called logic and common sense that appear to be alien to you, hence your confusion here. Quote:Weird because I said in the OP (that you didn't read, just responded because you think I hate all cops...not just the bad ones) Because you do, "I don't see the gun that everyone else on planet Earth sees". You hate LEO's, you just lack the courage to admit it. Quote:That middle ground would be doing your job. Within which there is a huge amount of variance. Again, a not hard to grasp nuance that eludes you. Quote:But since this will be all "you don't know anything" and personal attacks I'll let you talk to the ether for awhile. Aww, you always retreat into, "I'm being attacked" when you know you've stepped in it. So predictable. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - XenoMorph - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 10:27 AM)GMDino Wrote: So rather than fix the problems that were found they decided to just ignore everything? Why try and do your job when you cast as the criminal... We need to stop protecting criminals more than the law enforcers. The people rioting got what they wanted more crime and less police. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Belsnickel - 07-12-2018 This is one of those things that, like most, requires a bit more nuance than the typical conversation about it tends to hold onto. There are nuggets of truth to the statements of both SSF and GMDino. It is true that there was an effort by officers in some cities, Baltimore included if I recall correctly, to purposely stop doing their jobs in an effort to "show the people." The results have been different in different places. At the same time, there have been places where police feel abandoned by their administration in the face of public scrutiny. Of course, we've had news items in the past year about literal cards being handed out to police to get them and/or their friends and family off of minor crimes. I think both sides of this issue tend to carry it to the extreme, as is typical of today's controversies. There has to be a middle ground to come to on this, but the two sides aren't willing to hear those solutions at the moment. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - GMDino - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 12:17 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Why try and do your job when you cast as the criminal... That's not what they wanted. They wanted to not have their constitutional rights violated and to not worry that they might die in transport as a "suspect". What they got are people who won't do anything because they are afraid they might not do it right. They should quit completely if that is their mindset. I have to do my job every day. Sometimes I make a mistake. Sometimes I am criticized. (Sometimes unfairly.) I still do my job. I don't stop doing portions of it because I might get told I did it wrong...even if I didn't. And if I did do something wrong I make every attempt to correct my error...I don't just stop doing that thing. In the Baltimore case it might take time and (heaven forbid) money and training and people who WANT to do it...but just not doing anything is (pardon the phrase) a cop out. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Belsnickel - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 12:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: That's not what they wanted. They wanted to not have their constitutional rights violated and to not worry that they might die in transport as a "suspect". What they got are people who won't do anything because they are afraid they might not do it right. They should quit completely if that is their mindset. This is the type of discussion that really doesn't help, and I'll explain why. I get that the desire from BLM and similar movements is for their rights to be respected. Not an unreasonable desire. But what specifically is desired for a policy change? When we discuss only these things, what the law enforcement community hears are grievances, but they are doing what they have been trained to do. Sometimes things go wrong, but if they are following policy and their training, then that is an unfortunate circumstance. So how can we adapt policies and training to make the community and law enforcement more of a partnership than it currently is? That's what we need to be focusing on. And to be clear, law enforcement isn't blameless in this. There is a lot of resistance to change, as there always is in any organization. They are already on the defensive because of the criticisms, so they are even less receptive to constructive ideas for change than they would normally be. This is why we just need to rethink how we approach all of this. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - GMDino - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 12:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is the type of discussion that really doesn't help, and I'll explain why. I get that the desire from BLM and similar movements is for their rights to be respected. Not an unreasonable desire. But what specifically is desired for a policy change? When we discuss only these things, what the law enforcement community hears are grievances, but they are doing what they have been trained to do. Sometimes things go wrong, but if they are following policy and their training, then that is an unfortunate circumstance. So how can we adapt policies and training to make the community and law enforcement more of a partnership than it currently is? That's what we need to be focusing on. That's the "middle ground" I am talking about. If nothing had been found then no changes needed to be made. But rather than work with the community and work for change they have (apparently) just quit doing some of the job. And that's why I said it might take better training (money & time) to fix anything. I'm sure I have posted before that training is the key to all of this. Something other countries invest more in than we do here. My approach would be to have everyone working together rather than casting unfounded accusations OR being defensive to every accusation. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Belsnickel - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 12:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: That's the "middle ground" I am talking about. If nothing had been found then no changes needed to be made. But rather than work with the community and work for change they have (apparently) just quit doing some of the job. But what about the training needs to be changed? I think that is something that needs to have more time spent on it. I think a lot of people in this conversation don't understand the evolution of law enforcement to present day, or even the theories that are the basis of modern day policing. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - Beaker - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 11:32 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Omar is probably one of the most well written characters on any show, ever. As much as everything changed, things stayed the same. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - GMDino - 07-12-2018 (07-12-2018, 01:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But what about the training needs to be changed? I think that is something that needs to have more time spent on it. Awhile back I posted about how police in England are trained more in how to diffuse situations and in dealing with the citizens...that would be a good start. Maybe ALL of the training needs looked at because there are issues. And when you have issues training people who can take your freedom, property and life it needs constantly monitored. There are CLEARLY smart people who look at and understand these things...but will anyone listen to them? There will be resistance to any change or any "egghead" that wants to discuss possible changes. Heck there are people right here on this board that see no issues at all except citizens complaining about police "doing their job". Everyone needs to pull their heads out of the dirt and look at each other and work together to try and make things better. Not perfect. Better. We would all be better off. RE: Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killing - fredtoast - 07-12-2018 The claim that "administration does not have their backs" is total BS. Administration is full of former officers and we have all heard about the famous "Blue Wall". The problem is that street officers feel that if the administration does not support them 100% no matter how bad they messed up then that counts as "not having their back". But the increase in crime is not all due to police just sitting on their hands. Police need to cooperation of citizens to solve crimes. They rarely solve crime without a witness or some sort of cooperation from private citizens. When things go bad like they did in Baltimore then citizens stop talking to police at all. they don't even want to come forward as a witness because they don't trust the police. It is disgusting that police refused to do their jobs because people were upset over a person dying in their custody, but that is not the only cause for the spike in crime. |